Castle Keeper Update

Piperdog · Post by **Piperdog** » Tue May 06, 2008 11:38 am

I just thought I'd throw this out there again: how is the CKG coming along? I remember reading a while back that more manpower was allocated to that task, so I was wondering how it is faring.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue May 06, 2008 1:16 pm

We shall see. It doesn't look like the book is going to be ready for TrollCon or LGGC last time it was mentioned.

-O
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Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Tue May 06, 2008 6:13 pm

Yes, there is going to be a CKG.

R-
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue May 06, 2008 6:22 pm

I went camping last weekend and saw Bigfoot slinking into the woods with an autographed, limited edition of the CKG.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue May 06, 2008 6:41 pm

I just want to know if there will be one to put in my casket when I die of old age?

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue May 06, 2008 6:44 pm

Only if you don't mind an exhumation so that can add it at a later (TBA) date.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue May 06, 2008 6:51 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Only if you don't mind an exhumation so that can add it at a later (TBA) date.

Permission granted.

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jaybird216 · Post by **jaybird216** » Tue May 06, 2008 6:59 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
I went camping last weekend and saw Bigfoot slinking into the woods with an autographed, limited edition of the CKG.

I'm Mr. Sasquatch, and I endorse this message.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed May 07, 2008 12:16 pm

The CKG will be released when the general population finally allows Ralph Nader to win the Presidency.

GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Wed May 07, 2008 12:40 pm

The CKG will be released right after Duke Nukem Forever hits the shelves.
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Post by **Fiffergrund** » Wed May 07, 2008 12:55 pm

It will be released simultaneously with Guns-N-Roses' "Chinese Democracy".
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dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Wed May 07, 2008 6:45 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
It will be released simultaneously with Guns-N-Roses' "Chinese Democracy".

Don't say that, because Axl recently turned that album over to his record label and announced it was finished.
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Post by **Fiffergrund** » Wed May 07, 2008 7:08 pm

dutch206 wrote:
Don't say that, because Axl recently turned that album over to his record label and announced it was finished.

Wow, really? That used to be the go-to whipping boy for slipped deadlines. What is the world coming to?
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mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Thu May 08, 2008 7:33 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
I went camping last weekend and saw Bigfoot slinking into the woods with an autographed, limited edition of the CKG.

funny thing, last night I was abducted by aliens and while being "interrogated" i saw a copy of the CKG on the other table.

dachda · Post by **dachda** » Thu May 08, 2008 8:45 pm

mordrene wrote:

Quote:
funny thing, last night I was abducted by aliens and while being "interrogated"

Can you sit down yet? or is still too painful?
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Indigo Rose · Post by **Indigo Rose** » Thu May 08, 2008 10:18 pm

Sieg heard about the sightings of the CKG and shouted, "So that's what happened to the manuscript!"
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mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Fri May 09, 2008 12:18 pm

dachda wrote:
mordrene wrote:

Can you sit down yet? or is still too painful?

for some strange reason a satelite dish keeps coming out. god i love old south park.

Piperdog · Post by **Piperdog** » Fri May 09, 2008 12:29 pm

Great guys. Thanks for all the ...er....help.

LOL

Brutorz Bill · Post by **Brutorz Bill** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:29 pm

I've quit concerning myself about it. I don't read the blogs about it, IF I happen to go to my FLGS shop and see it on the shelf one day I'll give it a look, I was HUNGRY for it a year ago, but not anymore.

JRR · Post by **JRR** » Sat May 17, 2008 6:00 am

Yep. Same thing with Necro's City of Brass. I was dying for that product,but it took so long to come out, I lost interest and moved on to other things. Products that take this long in development lose tons of sales due to consumer apathy.
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Dagger · Post by **Dagger** » Sat May 17, 2008 10:43 am

JRR wrote:
Products that take this long in development lose tons of sales due to consumer apathy.

How do you know that?
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GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Sat May 17, 2008 11:53 am

Quote:
funny thing, last night I was abducted by aliens and while being "interrogated" i saw a copy of the CKG on the other table

My God!! No wonder its taking so long to come out!! Who knows what kind of sick twisted tests those aliens put it through!!

Just say no to CKG with Anal probe!!!
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat May 17, 2008 1:54 pm

Dagger wrote:
How do you know that?

There are no hard facts because 9 out of every 10 apathetic consumers failed to participate in the research.

On another note, after quite a bit of waiting I find myself rather apathetic about the CKG release these days. It went from a "must buy" to a "eh, I'll check it out".

Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Sat May 17, 2008 2:38 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
On another note, after quite a bit of waiting I find myself rather apathetic about the CKG release these days. It went from a "must buy" to a "eh, I'll check it out".

The sentiments expressed by several posters above are similar to mine, but my biggest concern is the development time itself. Seems like whenever a book is in the writing stage as long as this one has been, it inevitably suffers. Either the ideas were bad in the first place and are proving impossible to fix, or they were great ideas but are being fiddled with so much they are being ruined.

Brutorz Bill · Post by **Brutorz Bill** » Sat May 17, 2008 7:16 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
There are no hard facts because 9 out of every 10 apathetic consumers failed to participate in the research.

On another note, after quite a bit of waiting I find myself rather apathetic about the CKG release these days. It went from a "must buy" to a "eh, I'll check it out".

I'm sorry to say my apathy is starting to spread to things other than just the lateness of the CKG. The Crusader doesn't even have a schedule as far as I'm aware. I subscribed a long time ago, had to have numerous emails to get my subscription activated. I've gotten two issues, and I subcribed ages ago. I also have ordered goods directly from the Troll Lords several times, my FLGS just won't stock Troll Lords stuff. EVERY time I have placed an order with the Troll Lords they have screwed it up. EVERY time. Not just once...not just twice...not just three times..not just four times!!!! .....well you get the idea. They always apologize and send me free swag, after I have sent them some emails explaining their error, but that's not what I want. I want the product I ordered and I'd like to get it in a timely fashion. So I won't be ordering direct from them anymore.

Call me goofy but I'd also like to be able to be get semi-regular RPG stuff from them, or at least somewhere within the timeframe it was originally announced. I mean wasn't the CKG supposed to be out no later than Gen Con of last year?? and now it's apparently not really a GM guidebook but rather a book of optional rules???

I was uber excited about C&C a couple of years ago when I first discovered it. Got my group to play it, they enjoyed it, and we were all looking forward to more goodies, everyone in my group bought player's books and such.

I know it's a small company but enough is enough. I'm going to start looking elsewhere for a place to spend my gaming dollars. So while I may not represent tons of sales I am a gainfully employed professional with some disposable income still in hand that I'd like to spend, but I apparently won't be spending it on Troll Lords products and no I'm not into 4th edition, so I was really hoping the Troll Lords would get their act together, but doesn't seem like that's going to happen.

Sorry for the rant.

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Sun May 18, 2008 5:08 am

Hmm, thought a lot about Bill's post here and after a time a few things hit me.

While I understand his and other posters' complaints on delays and problems arising from the situation -- a VERY small company attempting to play in a pretty large pond (and let's be really realistic here -- TLG has about as many regular employees as JUST Dragon magazine did for TSR circa 1980) -- I think it's best to step back and get a bit of perspective....

Honestly, the only thing we can really be upset about is a little bit of over-exuberance in marketing for the 1st two years or so, when the CKG and other stuff was all 1st sort of put out as "on the anvil." That exuberance really is about personal passion and desire, and (sure) biting off a bit much to chew on (I can personally attest to how that happens -- if anyone remembers I put out a list of a whole bunch of stuff I was going to put online in support of my Ilshara setting -- it's amazing how things you plan out in your head run into all sorts of problems with time in real life). Yes, TLG is a company, they have a terrific product in C&C (I have been as excited with my group as everyone else here!!), and yes we all want lots more goodies, better regular magazines, and fast and efficient service.

On the other hand, one of the things that draws many of us to C&C in the first place is the fact that it isn't a large corporate shell, that there is a more personal "gamer geek" passion behind the motivations of the Trolls. It wouldn't be too hard to take the co. in a direction that would solve Bill's issues quickly -- simply bring on business-types to be managing partners, but that changes the name of the game instantly (uhm, anyone familiar with the names Blume and Williams??).

I don't think things have really changed about the CKG... except the Trolls didn't market it distinctively enough from the 3-core paradigm of the "DM's Guide" from earlier D&D editions. The tag line about it being a collection of rules alternatives has been on the listing at least since I first started looking at C&C (about 3 years), and I always assumed it wasn't a part of the core. Quite honestly, these boards are where I get most of my alternative rules and ideas....

Should the Trolls maybe not announce things so far in advance? Probably - looks like that's certainly happening now, just not taking back the already announced things like CKG or C&C Basic.

Would Crusader be more consistent in release if the Trolls let someone else take over? Already done, as Jim Ward and Sieg's wife are on board, and it appears that #10 will be out just one month after #9 and there is good hope this will now be a monthly.

And, qood quality stuff is coming out -- to the point that even after 3 years of purchasing stuff I still don't have everything already out, and I still have enough on my shelf to last a good two years (just from C&C stuff!) if nothing new came out in that time. Haven't ran Shadows of Halfling Hall, Chimera's Roost, or any East Mark/Yggsburgh stuff (including Dark Chateau or Mouths of Madness). Just now running Mortality of Green.

Ok, so what does this mean.... it's ok to be frustrated and want more (hell, we all do!) - but to say "well, I love C&C but I'll take my money elsewhere" just doesn't make much sense to me... if all I had was the PHB and M&T I'd still think it's a great system -- for me one of the main points of C&C was to allow for easy cross-conversion of 1e, 2e, B/X and d20 stuff so that I'm not reliant on just new mods or adventure path materials from the publisher. I guess it just seems like people want the benefits of the small 3rd party, but with the distribution and production abilities of a larger distributor. To me that's just a kind of unfare demand to place on any small publishing group. Delays are going to be inevitable as unexpected events occur.

Frankly, with the passing of Gary, who was as much a friend and mentor to the Trolls, it wouldn't have been surprising to see them simply lose interest and walk away from the grind of making this work... instead, as Steve's latest blogs indicate, they are working hard to address some of these concerns, and to keep committed to producing new RPG stuff for C&C, LA, and Gary's line, as well as trying to let others help (Josh Chewning, Ghul, Spencer Wright, etc.)

Ok, so those are my 2 cents. Will I still be interested in the CKG when it comes out? Sure. But if it never does I'll still go right along happily CKing my games. The ONLY announced-but-still-waiting-on product that would be devastating if we don't get it will be Castle Zagyg, and I would put a good bet that the indications that the 1st release is just about ready are a reality, and that we will be exploring the Upper Works before the autumn leaves begin to turn here in Wisconsin. Everything else is gravy. My only advice would be to narrow the "on the anvil" list to only those items actively being worked on. Much of the issues here are just perceptions of what was or wasn't promised and by what date.

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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sun May 18, 2008 7:04 am

Well said, John. I am not unsympathetic to the concerns over how things are progressing, but equally I am acutely aware that Troll Lord Games is a small company that is trying its best to meet and surpass the expectations of the community. I only ask that they do their best, beyond that I will either choose or not choose to spend my money.
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boxcornersdiety · Post by **boxcornersdiety** » Sun May 18, 2008 9:13 am

Brutorz Bill wrote:
I'm sorry to say my apathy is starting to spread to things other than just the lateness of the CKG. The Crusader doesn't even have a schedule as far as I'm aware. I subscribed a long time ago, had to have numerous emails to get my subscription activated. I've gotten two issues, and I subcribed ages ago. I also have ordered goods directly from the Troll Lords several times, my FLGS just won't stock Troll Lords stuff. EVERY time I have placed an order with the Troll Lords they have screwed it up. EVERY time. Not just once...not just twice...not just three times..not just four times!!!! .....well you get the idea. They always apologize and send me free swag, after I have sent them some emails explaining their error, but that's not what I want. I want the product I ordered and I'd like to get it in a timely fashion. So I won't be ordering direct from them anymore.

Call me goofy but I'd also like to be able to be get semi-regular RPG stuff from them, or at least somewhere within the timeframe it was originally announced. I mean wasn't the CKG supposed to be out no later than Gen Con of last year?? and now it's apparently not really a GM guidebook but rather a book of optional rules???

I was uber excited about C&C a couple of years ago when I first discovered it. Got my group to play it, they enjoyed it, and we were all looking forward to more goodies, everyone in my group bought player's books and such.

I know it's a small company but enough is enough. I'm going to start looking elsewhere for a place to spend my gaming dollars. So while I may not represent tons of sales I am a gainfully employed professional with some disposable income still in hand that I'd like to spend, but I apparently won't be spending it on Troll Lords products and no I'm not into 4th edition, so I was really hoping the Troll Lords would get their act together, but doesn't seem like that's going to happen.

Sorry for the rant.

Personally, I don't care how long the CKG takes. I would rather have the Trolls focus on making solid, playable adventures and selling them at a reasonable price (<$10). I would rather they spent their time on editing, artwork, and quality writing and design than on perfect distribution and shipping out of their own office. I'd rather have an index for M&T than a rushed CKG at this point. I'd rather have hyperlinked PDFs and higher quality maps than another hardback book. Maybe they should just rename the CKG to "Castle Keepers Options" or something similar so they can finish when they are ready.

There is no way this book can be overdeveloped. As a book of rules interpretations and variations, each needs to be substantially playtested. Then the optional rules need to be tested in combinations...

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun May 18, 2008 9:37 am

JRR wrote:
Yep. Same thing with Necro's City of Brass. I was dying for that product,but it took so long to come out, I lost interest and moved on to other things. Products that take this long in development lose tons of sales due to consumer apathy.

If you don't buy City of Brass you are going to soooo regret it when you find out how awesome it is. It didn't meet my expectations. It didn't exceed them. It absolutely blew my expectations out of the water and laughed at them as they sank to the bottom. It is AWESOME!!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun May 18, 2008 9:41 am

I sympathize Brutorz, but then again I am glad it hasn't come out yet. I am still working my way through all my old gaming products deciding what I want to adapt or pass over. The CKG being published would just slow me down even more. Plus I have seen stuff in the Pathfinder RPG and 4E announcements I am wanting to steal too.

I guess I don't agonize over it as much because I am too busy finding and creating my own rules options. Which makes sense for me since I love "tinkering" with rules.
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