Playing Beyond the Low & Mid Levels

Keartroth · Post by **Keartroth** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:43 pm

I'm looking to try and possibly switch my group from D&D to C&C instead of either remaining with 3E or updating to 4E because it seems to be a step in the right direction away from some of the issues I take with WotC's take on fantasy roleplaying (Honestly, to many rules/"builds" in 3E and in 4E a Fighter who doesn't have faith in any god can raise the dead. . . . . ). While I've already ordered the books and look forward to reading through them nomatter your answer, I do wish to get the Keepers' advice on higher level play in C&C. In 3E D&D, the play style after 13ish level kinda got bogged down to me and lost some of it's appeal (not sure if it's simply because of the options for every round became to many or what, but our group routinely lost interest in playing past 13th level over the last eight years), and I am wondering if C&C also suffers from this same issue. If C&C does as well, do you have any suggestions on how to address this issue as a keeper? The campaign I would like to run my group through would cover 1st through epic (if there is even epic in C&C, haven't gotten the books yet).

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:36 am

You'll find that spellcasters have the game at high level.

bighara · Post by **bighara** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:44 pm

serleran wrote:
You'll find that spellcasters have the game at high level.

While I haven't run a high level C&C game myself, serleran makes a good point. This may or may not be a big issue for you and your group, depending on your play styles. Groups that tend to work together won't have as much issue with powerful spellcasters as groups where the players worry about "inter-class balance." i.e. Is a __th level Fighter as "powerful" as a __th level wizard?

Some of this is addressed by the XP tables. Unlike d20, classes advance at different rates (more like older version of D&D). In other words, a fighter with 100,000xp will be 8th level whereas a wizard with the same XP total would be 7th. This evens out a bit as they reach 12th level or thereabouts, though. The other XP factor is that C&C characters tend to advance slower than d20 PCs (by the book, at least). So it can be longer until you're dealing with higher levels in your game.

Rules aside, the CK/GM/DM can address this somewhat by how he runs the campaign. Remember, by the time a party is in the teens or higher in level, simple dungeon crawls aren't going to be their staple diet. If they are involved in the setting, there can be all sorts of things where just being able to cast high level spells isn't going to make all the difference. Stereotypical Wizards are solitary people, researching new spells and such in their towers. Fighter-types may have become nobles or generals or warlords, with armies at their backs. Thieves and Assassins may be guild leaders. Clerics and Druids might be heads of temples. Even a 20th level Wizard isn't going to beat an army led by a high level Knight. Not if the Knight is intelligent about tactics and has magic items comparable to his level. Of course, a smart general has his own spellcasters in his retinue when he fights a wizard. Plus maybe a few golems (immune to spells).

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:02 pm

Simple dungeon crawls are still their "thing". You just need to scale it to their level, like say the many layers of catacombs under Unklars domain, with many demon types and powerful creatures of all varieties are forced to live, awaiting the call of their lord and master. I bet even the Morgryl live down there, and probably many of the more ancient and powerful Eldritch Goblyns.
Anyways, yes, Mages can "own the game" at higher levels. So can Clerics. So can Druids. So can fighters.

Fighters?

Yes, fighters. One thing needed at higher levels is magic. Give the fighter the "Excalibur" the "Diamond Armor", etc... and they stay very on par with the spell casters. It just seems most CK's are too uncomfortable with giving out such items of power. So the fighter stays crippled in comparison. They are still pretty kick butt compared to other fighter types of lower level, and can even kick the butt of lower level spell caster types, and even equal level casters, if they get in quick enough, and hit them hard enough, fast enough. However, giving them that something extra, like feather edged weapons that can allow them to come in and slice off the head of a demon in one blow, or the head of an arch mage in one blow, definitely helps them be on par with any spell caster.
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simontmn · Post by **simontmn** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:26 pm

There's no problem of C&C bogging down at high level. However, C&C is designed primarily for levels 1-12.

Per M&T:

Level

1-4: Low

5-8: Medium

9-12: High

1-12 should take at least as long as 1-20 in 3e, and 13th+ level characters are more likely to be domain lords, king's vizier, temple heads & such than adventurers; ie I'd recommend a change in play style at very high level.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:30 pm

One of my dislikes with the higher level C&C games is the lack of extra damage output by some of the non-spellcasting classes. This can lead to lengthy combats in which the party just whittles away an increasing amount of HP's.

Magic items can help offset this but it still seems to be there to some degree.

My other dislike, and this isn't a real problem, more just like personal taste, I dislike adding big numbers to the roll for SIEGE checks. So, a level 18 fighter is going to be adding at least +18 to appropriate SIEGE rolls. That is just a matter of taste though.

Overall, high level C&C games to play really well. Wizards can easily go out of control if you aren't mindful of their power however.

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:08 pm

Even in the mid ranges, once mages start getting the "damage" spells they can take over -- our wizard developed a taste for throwing fireball into icky evil taverns or houses with bad guys inside - effective, but also quite destructive to loot and potential clues like journals... the rest of the party is working hard to restrain him in some situations lol.

Generally, it really is the dynamics of the party that truly matter here - and I agree, CKs can allow for the discovery of artifacts and other things that increase the fighter, etc.

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Foxroe · Post by **Foxroe** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:19 pm

Keartroth wrote:
In 3E D&D, the play style after 13ish level kinda got bogged down to me and lost some of it's appeal (not sure if it's simply because of the options for every round became to many or what, but our group routinely lost interest in playing past 13th level over the last eight years), and I am wondering if C&C also suffers from this same issue.

Rest assured... C&C is not at all like this. My biggest pet peeve about 3E (and it doesn't look much better in 4E) is the abundance of powers/feats and the rapid accumulation of these abilities over a character's career. This isn't an issue in C&C. There are no prestige classes, no multi-page tables of Feats and Skills spread over a dozen splat-books, and there are no overwhelming grocery-lists of options available to each player every round. Combat is fast, fluid, and fun... like it should be. At higher levels the spells are obviously more powerful, characters have a few powers/abilities to choose from, and fighters get an additional attack per round, so combat is still fast & fun.

The whole point of the game (IMHO) is to spend a few enjoyable hours socializing and "adventuring" with friends. If your idea of enjoyment is fast-paced, imaginative role-playing, then C&C has much to offer you, from 1st level to 20th and beyond. If your idea of enjoyment is interpretation of rule minutiae, creating the ultimate character build, and slow/methodical table-top war gaming, then you may want to stick with 3E/4E (or invest some time in a Tome of House Rules ).

[steps off soap box]

-Fox

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:48 pm

seskis281 wrote:
our wizard developed a taste for throwing fireball into icky evil taverns or houses with bad guys inside

The wizard in the high level game that I ran grew overly fond of chain lightening.

20d6 to the primary target and 10d6 to each of the secondary targets at level 20. plus causing less collateral damage.
Timestop and a few Chain Lightenings can end quite a few enounters prematurely. No matter what type of Sword of Superdupered Kickassedness the fighter has.

Wizards are the Rah!

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:53 pm

Actually, spellcasters vs. 3rd+ level druid is the suck... summon swarm. No save. No SR. Automatic damage of 1 point/round (or 1d4+level if they don't actively fight the swarm) with no preset duration (=concentration+2 rounds) So, you better hope you roll well on your initiative, cause if there's a low level druid about, you're probably going to have your ass handed to you.

adaen · Post by **adaen** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:00 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
One of my dislikes with the higher level C&C games is the lack of extra damage output by some of the non-spellcasting classes. This can lead to lengthy combats in which the party just whittles away an increasing amount of HP's.

Magic items can help offset this but it still seems to be there to some degree.

My other dislike, and this isn't a real problem, more just like personal taste, I dislike adding big numbers to the roll for SIEGE checks. So, a level 18 fighter is going to be adding at least +18 to appropriate SIEGE rolls. That is just a matter of taste though.

Overall, high level C&C games to play really well. Wizards can easily go out of control if you aren't mindful of their power however.

Its for this reason that I tend to gravitate away from the D&D hitpoint system (not because it is "unrealistic", but b/c it just gets inconvenient at a point).

I also favor fully transparent difficulties and rolls for most things....that means all the bonuses/penalties can be made to the target number rather than to each roll.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:14 pm

serleran wrote:
Actually, spellcasters vs. 3rd+ level druid is the suck... summon swarm. No save. No SR. Automatic damage of 1 point/round (or 1d4+level if they don't actively fight the swarm) with no preset duration (=concentration+2 rounds) So, you better hope you roll well on your initiative, cause if there's a low level druid about, you're probably going to have your ass handed to you.

Or you could take the damage, step back and hit it with a Wand of Burning Hands, or similar item.

bighara · Post by **bighara** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:21 pm

adaen wrote:
Its for this reason that I tend to gravitate away from the D&D hitpoint system (not because it is "unrealistic", but b/c it just gets inconvenient at a point).

I also favor fully transparent difficulties and rolls for most things....that means all the bonuses/penalties can be made to the target number rather than to each roll.

One house rule I use to offset the HP issue is exploding damage dice. It doesn't happen every time, but a single hit can take down a pretty big foe, if the dice are on your side.

Another HR I use is a simplified Feat system. It's nowhere near as extensive or complex as 3.X, but it allows players a chance to customize their character a little. Also they keep getting new options even at higher levels (1 feat/3 levels).

Foxroe · Post by **Foxroe** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:22 pm

serleran wrote:
Actually, spellcasters vs. 3rd+ level druid is the suck... summon swarm. No save. No SR. Automatic damage of 1 point/round (or 1d4+level if they don't actively fight the swarm) with no preset duration (=concentration+2 rounds) So, you better hope you roll well on your initiative, cause if there's a low level druid about, you're probably going to have your ass handed to you.

Or take the 3E Epic-level feat "Immune to Just About Everything"...
-Fox

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:30 pm

Quote:
Or you could take the damage, step back and hit it with a Wand of Burning Hands, or similar item.

Not that effective against a druid (bonuses to save against element attacks and resistance spells) but possible. The point is: the spellcaster is not using spells.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:41 pm

serleran wrote:
Not that effective against a druid but possible. The point is: the spellcaster is not using spells.

I admit Summon Swarm is a pretty sweet spell but my players have found countless ways to thwart it. Especially at high levels. Wands of Burning hands, Rngs of Elemental Command, Staff of Fire, Staff of Frost, Staff of Power or even simply running out of the 50' range (which may only take a single round if the PC was already 20 or more away from the druid when he cast it).

Avoiding it is even more easy if they know they are headed towards a druid. Protection from Evil licks it every time.

Plus, you are hitting the swarm with the spell, dispersing it, not the druid.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:52 pm

Oh, yeah, I admit it's not the most awesome spell ever (though it is pretty damn nasty - countless ways to get around it like dimension door or whatever), but it is a great way to disrupt (and piss off) a caster

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:33 pm

bighara wrote:
One house rule I use to offset the HP issue is exploding damage dice. It doesn't happen every time, but a single hit can take down a pretty big foe, if the dice are on your side.

Another HR I use is a simplified Feat system. It's nowhere near as extensive or complex as 3.X, but it allows players a chance to customize their character a little. Also they keep getting new options even at higher levels (1 feat/3 levels).

I use Hit Points as Hero Points, also. Expend 1 Hit Point, and you can add +1 to hit, +1 to damage, +1 to an ability check or save, or increase the spellcaster level, or cast one more spell (spell level=hit points spent).

With the exception of spell casting, the "damage" is subdual damage, representing effort. For spells, it represents actually "burning" vitality to fuel magic.

I found it is a quite easy resource management system.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:25 pm

adaen wrote:
I also favor fully transparent difficulties and rolls for most things....that means all the bonuses/penalties can be made to the target number rather than to each roll.

Thats how we play 2nd Edition, to a degree. We use modified THAC0's to take into account STR bonuses, weapon specialization, weapon bonuses. That way its just a straight up AC vs. THAC0 roll. Occasionally a small modifier for circumstance added or subtracted to the roll, but for the most part,all bonuses are recorded on the sheet for the modified THAC0 for a particular weapon.

TheGM · Post by **TheGM** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:05 am

We have some issues with higher levels that just aren't hit on here, or are assumed.

AC becomes meaningless, for example, when your fighter is adding +12 to every roll for level and another +2 or +3 for Str, and another +3 for Magic.

If, at +18, you miss, you need a new D20.

The next M&T should help this some, as right now I'm using monsters from other versions to get anything with an AC over 18 that isn't deadly.

One option is to pit them against NPCs, but then they'll likely have MIs that are useful to up these numbers...

And of course I'm one of the "Your 15th level fighter needs an 18 to save versus that 15th level wizard's spell? Ridiculous." people - there are two views on this, that the wizard improved as the fighter did, I'm in the opposite camp - A fireball is, after all, still a fireball, so why didn't the fighter learn many levels ago to dodge?

But I will point out this is still our game of choice by a long shot, so these issues are not insurmountable, you just have to be willing to adjudicate on-the-fly a bit to make sure your characters are both challenged and feeling like they're progressing.

Our highest level game ever was 15-18th level, we relatively frequently play 11-12 level, and both of our bi-weekly campaigns are currently in the 8-10 level range (both from first a couple of years ago), so it's a breadth of experience speaking.

Don.
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Foxroe · Post by **Foxroe** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:55 am

Well in defense of the saving throws... sure the Fighter learned to dodge the fireball, but he hasn't learned to dodge the FIREBALL! Seriously, if the 18th level Wizard/MU/Whatever is throwing out a 18HD ball-o'flaming-death, it should be pretty tough to dodge! (at least IMHO).

As for the AC... just make your monsters a little tougher. Imagine the party's surprise when they run across a band of un-turnable, holy water immune, 8HD, AC 26 uber-skeletons with +5 glaive-guisarmes!
The characters should be challenged at all levels, otherwise it's not an adventure... it's a jaunt in the park.
-Fox

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:57 am

Not always, Foxroe. One of the benefits of high level is that some things are just beneath you... too easy and mundane to deal with.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:24 am

Foxroe wrote:
Imagine the party's surprise when they run across a tribe of un-turnable, holy water immune, 8HD, AC 26 uber-skeletons with +5 glaive-guisarmes!

I prefer flaming, unholy, vorpal glaive-guisarmes of life-stealing.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:30 am

bighara wrote:
Some of this is addressed by the XP tables. Unlike d20, classes advance at different rates (more like older version of D&D). In other words, a fighter with 100,000xp will be 8th level whereas a wizard with the same XP total would be 7th. This evens out a bit as they reach 12th level or thereabouts, though.

And actually, if I'm remembering right, the wizard and the fighter have the exact same xp advancement starting at 10th level till forever.

I just remember that as striking me odd. I'll have to double check though.

EDIT: Yup, checked it, from 10th level on fighters and wizards have the exact XP progression. That don't seem right though.

Foxroe · Post by **Foxroe** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:46 am

serleran wrote:
Not always, Foxroe. One of the benefits of high level is that some things are just beneath you... too easy and mundane to deal with.

Exactly! And an 18HD fireball will be beneath you... and above you... and around you... and well... pretty much all over you!
-Fox

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:20 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
And actually, if I'm remembering right, the wizard and the fighter have the exact same xp advancement starting at 10th level till forever.

I just remember that as striking me odd. I'll have to double check though.

EDIT: Yup, checked it, from 10th level on fighters and wizards have the exact XP progression. That don't seem right though.

Hmmm. I never noticed that before, or did and quickly forgot! Yeah, that needs fixed. Heck, the Illusionist only needs 150,000 XP per level. That is crazy.

As for AC's, I find them too dang high, for the PC's. Like a 7th level Paladin in my Monday Game has an AC of 31 versus evil. I would like some of those +18's to hit him with! I think he has a good DEX, a suit of Full Plate +2, and a +3 shield. Hmm, I don't know what I am missing. That is only an AC of 29 versus evil, assuming his DEX is 18. I'll have to look up his character sheet.

Then again, that is a "secret" for the parties survival. They have high AC's that allow them to be hit very rarely, and they have high BtH's and mass damage spells that allow them to wade through the army of demons. I mean if I adjusted an encounter to where they got hit 25% of the time it would become a TPK very fast, if my dice are just "warm", not even "rolling hot!".

Part of how I get rid of HP's fast, at least in the Against the Giants modules, is to give the giants their STR score, as indicated by the "Giants Strength" items in the M&T. It also boost their BtH to hit the high AC's. 2d8+3 can whittle 7th level PC HP's down pretty quick.

Now as for PC HP's, the Ranger/Cleric in my 13th to 15th level game has the most HP's at like 128, I think. I've killed him the most. Which is why he is a cleric, he died so often and developed such a good relationship with his Goddess that he decided to serve her as a cleric.

So I don't know how high the HP's were in your game DD, but I would guess they weren't much higher then that. I can only presume you didn't throw a bunch of fireballs, lightning bolts, and chain lightnings at the PC's. Or have 6 Frost Giants team up on the Ranger and go to town on him. Oh, wait, that was at 9th level.

Anyways, I am definitely finding that I need to pull out the big bad monsters and high level evil BBEG's to challenge the PC's. But I have yet to pull out any of the big bad evil nasties of Unklar, let alone the Eldritch Goblyns, but I will. The party will have to take down the Goblyn King before all is said and done. SO I'll definitely be putting a hurting on them, many times.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:23 am

Treebore wrote:
So I don't know how high the HP's were in your game DD, but I would guess they weren't much higher then that. I can only presume you didn't throw a bunch of fireballs, lightning bolts, and chain lightnings at the PC's. Or have 6 Frost Giants team up on the Ranger and go to town on him. Oh, wait, that was at 9th level.

My comment about HP's isn't directed at how long it takes critters to whittle down PC's. It's more of how long it takes PC's to whittle down critters at higher levels, in comparison to older editions of D&D.

In 2nd Edition, higher level parties have a higher damage output than their C&C counterparts without relying on a wizard.

All higher level warrior classes in 2nd Edition will have 2 attacks per round by that point. A specialized fighter will have 5/2 attacks per round. This help lead to more damage per round inflicted by the party so as not to draw combat out an extra few rounds with a prolonged battle of attrition.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:24 am

True, that does make a difference. A difference my game has because I allow SIEGE checks to make extra attacks. In fact, the Ranger and Paladin have earned extra attacks as permanent character abilities due to succeeding on that particular kind of SIEGE check so many times. The Runemark/Druid has gotten the ability to change the energy type of her spells, and the Thief/mage isn't far from earning the same ability.

So my house rules definitely have an effect on the high level play.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:33 pm

[quote="Foxroe"][quote="serleran"]Not always, Foxroe. One of the benefits of high level is that some things are just beneath you... too easy and mundane to deal with. [/quote]

Exactly! And an 18HD fireball will be beneath you... and above you... and around you... and well... pretty much all over you!
-Fox[/quote]

I remember the old days from 1st and 2nd ed. AD&D....33,000 cubic feet of flaming hell...backblasting up corridors at the PCs.
and there were no dice limits on the thing...an 86HD fireball (our DM's favored NPC) pretty well fried our bacon, and everything else. such fun...
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:40 pm

Go0gleplex wrote:
I remember the old days from 1st and 2nd ed. AD&D....33,000 cubic feet of flaming hell...backblasting up corridors at the PCs.
and there were no dice limits on the thing...an 86HD fireball (our DM's favored NPC) pretty well fried our bacon, and everything else. such fun...

in 2e there were limits, it was 10d6. In Classic D&D it was 20d6. In 1e AD&D there seemingly were no limits.

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Playing Beyond the Low & Mid Levels

Playing Beyond the Low & Mid Levels

Re: Playing Beyond the Low & Mid Levels