The C&C Fighter (Ultimate Thread)

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Omote
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Post by Omote »

Time to start an Ultimate Barbarian thread now.

~O
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Re: Bards

Post by Arazmus »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Except when you need a character who can smooth the way in situations that don't always call for the 'beat it with a stick' method.

Like the illusionist, its a class that calls for subtlety and a different way of thinking.

the rogue and the knight pretty much cover it though. It just seems that the poor bard doesn't have a good place to fit in, he's a lot like AD&D's assassin.

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Re: Bards

Post by gideon_thorne »

Arazmus wrote:
the rogue and the knight pretty much cover it though. It just seems that the poor bard doesn't have a good place to fit in, he's a lot like AD&D's assassin.

The rogue and the knight aren't musical. Which tends to influence more people than picking their pocket, or sticking them with a lance would.
Neither class have the lore keeping capability of the bard.

Not sure what trouble you had with the AD&D assassin? They fit just fine in the games I was involved in.
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Re: Bards

Post by Arazmus »

Fighters seem just fine to me in C&C they are most beginners' first character given the ease of play and 'real-world' comparison. The nice thing about the C&C fighter is that the mechanics of the system negate the need to have special prestige classes and the like to make the sort of fighter you want; just assign the appropriate Primes and choose the appropriate weapons and you are playing the character you want to play from 1st level onward. Even fighters can be subtle if that's the way you create them. C&C mechanics rules lite philosophy makes it so much easier and flexible than most other games I've played.

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Re: Barbarians

Post by Frost »

gideon_thorne wrote:
The new barbarian has all this.

Unless I'm missing something, the class does not have a "call horde" ability.

However, here is a quick rundown of what it does have:
Deerstalker: live off the land
Intimidate: Oponent(s) make a CHA check or else load their pants (i.e., they receive combat penalties)
Primeval Instincts: Perform feats of strength/endurance
Whirlwind Attack: Attacks multiple opponents (the amount is based on level)
Primal Will: Extra HPs kick in when severely wounded
Ancestral Calling: Temporarily boost the HP of comrades
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Post by crom10 »

Like with everyone else, I had many complaints about the Fighter and that combat took way to long to resolve. I have made some additions to the fighters special abilities and and also for the other classes that wiil hopefully remedy these complaints.

First off I have never really liked the title of Fighter. I prefer Warrior or Man-At-Arms. I have expanded the weapon specialization to include other fighting classes and to a lesser extent for Clerics, Rogues and Assasins. Wizards and Illusionists can not specialize in weapon use, but to make up for this I gave these two the Arcane Blast which I have found on these forums. I also found weapon specialization that Serleran had offered up in another thread and thought it was great so I am using it.

Battle is the Warriors discipline and so he must follow weapon specialization. THe Warrior will gain new weapon specialization at levels 1,4,8,12,16,20,etc... He can also choose to specialize with other weapons or just add the new bonuses to an excisting specialized weapon.

So 1st improvement- +1 to hit and damage.

2nd improvement- +1 to hit and damage, off-hand penalty reduced by -2 and damage dice increased by one type (ex. d4 becomes d6, 2d4 becomes 3d4- if weapon already does d12 damge then change to 2d6 and cotinue...).

3rd improvement- +1 to hit and damage, off-hand penalty is removed.

4th improvement- +1 to hit and damage, damage dice increased by one type ass above.

5th improvement- +1 to hit and damage

6th improvement- +1 to hit and damage, damage increases by one type etc...

Rangers, Paladins, Barbarians and Knights can choose to specialize or not and gain specializatoin beginning at 5th level and agian at 10th, 15th, 20th and so forth. Clerics, Rogues, and Assasins start at 6th and then at 12th, 18th, etc...

The Warrior gains the Extra attack at 9th level instead of 10th. And again at 13 and 17.
New abilities

Smite- At 9th level the Warrior can smite one opponent once per day. He must drop whatever he is holding in off-hand and clasp his weapon with both hands raise it above his head and put all his strength into this one strike adding any constitution bonus to the roll. IF he hits- adds 1 extra hit point of damage per level of the Warrior to teh damage roll. I took this from the Paladin.

Shield-Wall- Must have a shield! At 8th the Warrior negate the effects of a single attack by making a Dex. save roll with the opponents level or hd as the CL. If successfull than all of the damage that may been caused will be negated. This skill can be performed once per combat.

Reactuion Strike- At 5th level the Warrior has howned his fighting skill well enough that he can respond immediality to any opponent that appears within 5 feet of him before any initiative is rolled. This abilty allows the fighter to make a Dex. saving throw against surprise attacks with the opponents level or HD as the CL. If successfull than the Warrior can make one attack against that opponent ruining the surprise. This skill can performed once per combat against normal or surprise attacks.

These last two abilities were inspired by the War HAmmer Quest board game.

Well thats it. Let me know what you guys think.

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Post by Relaxo »

crom10 wrote:
... I had many complaints ... that combat took way to long to resolve....

I take it you've never played a 3rd ed game?
I like that shield ability.
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Post by crom10 »

Relaxo wrote:
I take it you've never played a 3rd ed game?
I like that shield ability.

Nope. I never played 3rd edition or 4th though I have thumbed through the books at the book store. I don't like what WOTC have done to the game thats why I play C&C.

How long does combat take in 3rd or 4th ed?

I have also heard that Role Master combat takes really long to play out as well. Even the old MERP game which is surprising to me and I've always wanted to try MERP- I have the 1st ed rulebook and many of the books but never used.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

crom10 wrote:
How long does combat take in 3rd or 4th ed?

From my experiences, it could take up the whole evening due to fiddle faddling around with feats and the like.

But then again C&C and AD&D combat could take up the whole evening depending on the type of combat and the circumstances.
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Post by Omote »

I played a large game of 3rd Edition where there was a combat between Orcus, and about a dozen of his minions. The fight was against high level PCs. All of our players were extremely well versed in the ways of v3.5. The fight took us about 6.5 hours or so.

Tedium.

~O
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Post by Relaxo »

Wow.

I didn't know it was THAT bad.

Now to some, I think that's it's own brand of fun, and I don't mean to be confrontational. but it's not for me you may have guessed. I prefer a bang bang bang, whaddayado? huh? too late! sort of pace, where the RP of the combat is nearly as short as a real combat would be.
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Post by crom10 »

Relaxo wrote:
Wow.

I didn't know it was THAT bad.

Now to some, I think that's it's own brand of fun, and I don't mean to be confrontational. but it's not for me you may have guessed. I prefer a bang bang bang, whaddayado? huh? too late! sort of pace, where the RP of the combat is nearly as short as a real combat would be.

Exactly!

crom10

Post by crom10 »

Relaxo wrote:
Wow.

I didn't know it was THAT bad.

Now to some, I think that's it's own brand of fun, and I don't mean to be confrontational. but it's not for me you may have guessed. I prefer a bang bang bang, whaddayado? huh? too late! sort of pace, where the RP of the combat is nearly as short as a real combat would be.

Exactly!

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Post by Omote »

Relaxo wrote:
Now to some, I think that's it's own brand of fun...

Very true. There have been long combats in all versions of these games where there was strategy, terrain, and who knows what else to consider. Since combat in v3.5 gaming is essentially a board game, there is some room to consider the tactical aspect of that game. There has been a few of them in that edtion of the game that was enjoyed. But the problem comes into when a game is being played, let's say a chase scene, and combat in that game completely breaks the pace. Now that gets annoying as hell because slow, tactical combat is such an intergral part of that game.

~O
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Post by Relaxo »

So Crom, what you're saying is...

"exactly?"

I just want to be sure I understand.
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Post by crom10 »

I have no idea why my "eactly" post showed-up three times as I only made one?

Oh well...

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Post by koralas »

crom10 wrote:
I have also heard that Role Master combat takes really long to play out as well. Even the old MERP game which is surprising to me and I've always wanted to try MERP- I have the 1st ed rulebook and many of the books but never used.

ROLEmaster was long because of the sheer number of charts you had to deal with to resolve one swing of a sword.

MERP, as long as we are talking of the same version, was a slightly scaled back version of RM, so, yes those took some time as well.

crom10

Post by crom10 »

koralas wrote:
ROLEmaster was long because of the sheer number of charts you had to deal with to resolve one swing of a sword.

MERP, as long as we are talking of the same version, was a slightly scaled back version of RM, so, yes those took some time as well.

Thanks for the information. I looked through my MERP 1st ed. rulebook the other day and was surprised about just how much rules and notes one has to keep track of just to create a character let alone play the game! Now I understand why so many people have said that they just took the MERP books and converted them to AD&D or whatever rules system they were familiar with.

Apparently, MERP was the 2nd best selling rpg next to AD&D during the 80's. Is this true?

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Post by PeelSeel2 »

We played MERP alot back in the day. We had lots of fun. Looking at it now it seems tedious. I guess it was always about criticals
I hve not modified the fighter for C&C so far. Playing it btb for right now.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Might have to come up with a new variation on the class at this rate.

The Ultimate Fighter Guy.

TUF Guy for short.
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Post by Piperdog »

Legends and mythology abound with great warriors killing horrible monsters with one blow. I looked at the monks death strike ability and said"hey, why not a fighter too?" So I have thought of calling Legendary Strike, which works just like monks ability, including only being used once per week ( with more uses gained at epic levels), and is gained at, oh, I don't know, maybe 11th level or so. It can't be used unarmed, like the monk, only weapons. It could further be restricted to the weapon of specialization too.
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Re: The C&C Fighter (Ultimate Thread)

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Drink in the glory of thread necromancy.
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Re: The C&C Fighter (Ultimate Thread)

Post by Persimmon »

I'll jump in. One easy tweak to the fighter is to give him the "Mighty Deeds" mechanic from DCC. You could also then add the variable to hit & damage they use for fighters, (every attack you might roll d8 or whatever & add that to your existing attribute bonuses) along with higher crit probability (if you use crits) and faster progression to multiple attacks. Apparently much of this is done in the new Siege Engine derived "Swords & Chaos" game. I got word yesterday that they'll be shipping hard copies of that in the next week or so. If the fighter therein is significantly better or more interesting than the current one in PHB, I'll simply give players the option of using the Swords & Chaos version.
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Re: The C&C Fighter (Ultimate Thread)

Post by Go0gleplex »

My tweak to the Fighter Abilities. Renamed one and adjusted a small bit...but I've found these really give the Fighter a combat specialist feel. Opinions may vary. ;) lol
Abilities: Weapon Specialization, Reaper, Extra Attack, Counter, Indomitable

Weapon Specialization – Remains unchanged from as written in the Player’s Handbook
At 1st level, the fighter can choose one weapon with which to specialize. All weapons are eligible, including ranged weapons such as the bow or sling. The weapon with which the fighter specializes is usually common to the fighter’s culture or society, but it need not be. The Castle Keeper and player should consult to determine which weapons are available for specialization, bearing in mind culture, location and availability.
The fighter can only choose one weapon with which to specialize. Once chosen, the weapon cannot be changed. For fighters between 1st and 6th level, this specialization imparts a +1 bonus to hit and a +1 bonus to damage when being used. At 7th level and above, the bonuses increase to a +2 to hit and +2 to damage.

Reaper (3rd Level) – The Fighter makes a powerful horizontal attack against all foes of 1 HD or less in the front arc (180-degrees of facing). Doing so reduces the Fighter’s AC by -1 since they are putting all of their effort into this one attack. This ability cannot be stacked with Extra Attack. At 7th Level, the Fighter may use this attack against creatures of 2 HD or less.

Extra Attack (4th Level) – At 4th level, the fighter gains an extra attack with any weapon when fighting opponents, no hit dice limit. In order to use this ability, the fighter must direct all attacks in a combat round against opponents that meet these criteria. The fighter can split the available attacks among qualified opponents as desired. This ability improves as the fighter progresses in levels. The fighter gains an additional attack for every four levels gained after 4th level. So, at 8th level, the fighter is allowed a total of three attacks, and at 12th level, the fighter gains four attacks against these opponents. This ability does not combine with the Reaper ability described above. This ability is only useable with melee weapons and cannot be applied to ranged combat.

For example, an 8th level fighter is battling 5 kobolds in a dank cavern. When it comes time to attack, the fighter is allowed three swings against the kobolds; one swing for the class and two swings for the Extra Attack ability. The fighter can choose to attack one kobold three times or three different kobolds one time each.

Counter (7th Level) – The fighter must declare the use of this ability and designate an opponent to be countered before initiative is rolled for the round. When used, the fighter abandons offensive action while adopting a guard-like stance that will completely negate all damage from the first attack received from the designated opponent. Any additional attacks from said opponent will suffer a -2 penalty to hit for that combat round only if the opponent has multiple attacks.
Attacks from other opponents against the fighter are unaffected.

Indomitable (10th Level) – Once per day the fighter may rally their strength and will during a single battle, refusing to back down or weaken. With this indomitable spirit, the fighter is able to shrug off some of the damage received from enemy attacks. While active, the fighter suffers only half damage from physical attacks directed against them. In addition the fighter also gains a saving throw bonus of +3 versus breath weapon attacks directed against them as well as magical attacks such as fireballs, cones of cold, and other such spells that deal physical damage. Mental attacks would not have the bonus applied to them.
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Re: The C&C Fighter (Ultimate Thread)

Post by paladinn »

Well since the thread has been raised.. My latest fighter rendition is also based on Weapon Specialization. A fighter gets one at L1, then every 6 levels after. It gives a +1 attack and damage as written; Or a fighter can pick an existing weapon to get and additional +1 hit/dmg, max of +3. They get extra attack at L5, 10 and 20.

I'm also adapting the old "fighter combat options" from BECMI: Smash (i.e. Power Attack), Perry and Disarm; and I would include Cleave, like Combat Dominance, not limited to HD, you can cleave until you miss or the foe doesn't drop, up to your level in attacks. For ranged fighters, the Pandius archer has Aim, Disarm, Pin, Mighty Shot and Quick Shot. These "tactics" would work like the C&C advantages. How often they would be selected, I'm working on.

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Re: The C&C Fighter (Ultimate Thread)

Post by Persimmon »

I like cleave and extra attacks, as well as critical tables, for speeding up combat and adding that epic feel without encumbering things too much. In our game last weekend, the party's paladin, armed with a heavy mace of disruption+3, took down a skeleton lord in two rounds in solo combat because of these features. It was one of those moments when everyone at the table was high-fiving.
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Re: The C&C Fighter (Ultimate Thread)

Post by serleran »

I've been allowing fighters of level 7 and above to make use of the barbarian intimidate ability as long as they are attacking, and defeating, at least one enemy per round. Defeat is subjective and can include such things as felling, killing, disarming, and more.

Note, I do not use the barbarian class as I see it more as a society and often make monsters use it, which generally increases their HD.

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Re: The C&C Fighter (Ultimate Thread)

Post by Fiffergrund »

I still use the house rules I put in Crusader (#10?). Agreed on the barbarian class, Ser!
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Re: The C&C Fighter (Ultimate Thread)

Post by paladinn »

serleran wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:37 am
Note, I do not use the barbarian class as I see it more as a society and often make monsters use it, which generally increases their HD.
Completely agree. And some of the barbarian features look good on a fighter or ranger:)

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Re: The C&C Fighter (Ultimate Thread)

Post by Persimmon »

I like the barbarian, but it does have a few too many features to keep track of. And I bump the hit dice to d14, since I give the fighter d12.
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