Where are the Multiclass rules?

Thegreenman · Post by **Thegreenman** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:40 pm

Hi all, I'm brand new to C&C and have just gotten the PHB, however I can't find any rules for multiclassing. I've read in several reviews online that multiclass rules would be available from the TLG website but I can't find them. Please help.

Thanks

Chris

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:48 pm

Here ya go.

Thegreenman · Post by **Thegreenman** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:53 pm

thanks heaps

Foxroe · Post by **Foxroe** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:49 pm

Or you could use the 3.x rules.

-Fox

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:37 am

There was so much debating back and forth about how MC rules ought to work, in the initial design of the game, that they were left out of the core system.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:02 am

One of the Crusaders has multiclassing rules too if I remember right.

My groups have never really been into multi-classing so I've never really bothered with 'em.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:36 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
One of the Crusaders has multiclassing rules too if I remember right.

My groups have never really been into multi-classing so I've never really bothered with 'em.

Yes, several. I've read 'em all and like the variation, but like you DD, my group has not yet expressed any interest in multi-classing.

Oddly 2 player in my group prefer running multiple PCs, so I've allowed it since they're pretty darn good at doing this.

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TheNewGuy · Post by **TheNewGuy** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:09 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
One of the Crusaders has multiclassing rules too if I remember right.

Crusader Journal # 4 -- available right HERE.

TheNewGuy
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:02 pm

TheNewGuy wrote:
Crusader Journal # 4 -- available right HERE.

TheNewGuy

Yes, themulticlassing rules in this issue are good, and feel very classic style. These are the rules that I have used in C&C games. 2 players have played multi-class characters now, and there have been no problems at all.

In the latter issues of the Crusader there are a few neat articles regarding "blended classes." This is multiclassing, but creating a new class from the two classes. Pretty good stuff too, but it you like a classic ease of play style of multiclassing rules, Crusader #4 is the way to go.

-O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:05 pm

There is also, likely, something on this topic in the forthcoming CKG, whenever that is.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:07 pm

serleran wrote:
There is also, likely, something on this topic in the forthcoming CKG, whenever that is.

So pick up Crusader #4 is what yer saying?

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:08 pm

Yes, that is the best option by far. No sense on waiting for the CKG to get the goods.

-O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:10 pm

Actually, multiclassing was in two different Crusaders. It is just #4 has more options in it (three of them, as I recall.)

I don't care what you pick up - CKG, Crusader, Yggsburgh... but, I find it more fun to create my own rules for the matter (and I have - two different sets.)

adaen · Post by **adaen** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:36 pm

Any idea which Crusader spoke of the class-blending. This sounds like a much more elegant solution.

~AoB
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:37 pm

#4 and #5 - it was a carry-over because the article was too long for a single Crusader.

adaen · Post by **adaen** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:50 pm

Ahhh. Thanks.
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Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:05 pm

Am I the only one who thought the multi-classing rules from Crusader were too generous? Multi-class characters in C&C far outstrip their comrades in terms of power and utility. My last character, a Rogue/Wizard using Al Krombach's rules which are quite restrictive level-wise, was half the level of the other characters and I consistently had to rein him in to keep him from outshining the other characters.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:13 pm

Multiclass characters are always much more flexible than their single-classed comrades. If you are a C&C character with spellcasting (and another class, to say nothing of being a "double caster") you have many tools at your disposal, and these are often quite potent. So, yes: I agree, the current rules leave almost no reason to not play a multi classed character. I am playing a wizard/druid right now, and, essentially, for the cost of the wizard class (and a mere 25% of that of the druid) I get both classes! That almost makes being a druid (a very potent class singly) free! Why wouldn't I do it? (Yes, I know about roleplaying and not being a powergamer, but from a pure mechanical view, it is like getting a class for nothing.)

I think there needs to be a change to how it works. But, any change upsets everyone... so, we're back to square one.

Foxroe · Post by **Foxroe** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:53 pm

While I offered up the 3.x method earlier, I still prefer the original 1ed/2ed method, which is pretty close to the CZ method.

The -50% XP penalty and the averaging of HP's ensures that a player making a multi-class character really wants to play that character, rather than it being just a path to munchkin-ism (IMHO of course).

-Fox

Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:27 pm

Al Krombach's rules are simple - combine both classes abilities, use the least restrictive armor and weapons, average the hit die. But the kicker, and I agree with the way Al does it, is there is no averaging or percentage taking of XP. The XP requirements are flat out added to each other. So, here's the Fighter/Wizard:
Level HD BtH EPP Level/Spells per day

1 d6+1 +1 0 4/2

2 d6+1 +2 4,602 4/3

3 d6+1 +3 9,202 4/3/1

4 d6+1 +4 18,902 4/3/2

5 d6+1 +5 37,802 5/4/2/1

6 d6+1 +6 76,502 5/4/3/2

7 d6+1 +7 153,002 5/4/3/2/1

8 d6+1 +8 306,002 5/4/3/3/2

9 d6+1 +9 612,002 5/5/4/3/2/1

10 d6+1 +10 1,000,002 6/5/4/3/3/2

11 +2hp +11 1,500,002 6/5/4/4/3/2/1

12 +2hp +12 2,000,002 6/5/4/4/3/3/2

13 + 500,000 per level

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:18 pm

Perhaps one doesn't even need to go into multiclassing? Why not used the magic item creation rules in the M&T? The ones that talk about the xp cost of a given class ability for a magic item? That can be applied quite readily to characters wanting to buy other class abilities for their character. ^_~`
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:22 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Perhaps one doesn't even need to go into multiclassing? Why not used the magic item creation rules in the M&T? The ones that talk about the xp cost of a given class ability for a magic item? That can be applied quite readily to characters wanting to buy other class abilities for their character. ^_~`

Works niftily. I tried something similar after looking at Midnight and it's feats to learn magic. Applied various things to the CZ Class Options & Skills .

Several abilities that work similar to class abilities, even various degrees of arcane training or piety.

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:43 pm

Now that is an interesting idea.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:45 pm

Quote:
The ones that talk about the xp cost of a given class ability for a magic item?

Heh, sounds oddly like a class deconstruction.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:53 pm

serleran wrote:
Heh, sounds oddly like a class deconstruction.

Crack open the M&T and look at the costs, then try and tell me that.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:14 pm

They kind of are - if you consider that they are for magic items (ie, set abilities that do not improve, unlike those of a class which gradually get better.) So, yeah... I see some similarity, but not identicalness.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:28 pm

serleran wrote:
They kind of are - if you consider that they are for magic items (ie, set abilities that do not improve, unlike those of a class which gradually get better.) So, yeah... I see some similarity, but not identicalness.

If one blends that cost into the xp total, the ability can improve. Same thing with the CZ skill bundles and several other methods mentioned hither and yon on these and other boards. ^_^
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Jackal · Post by **Jackal** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:12 pm

I wrote the "Characters with More Class" article in Crusader 4 so I can field any questions you might have about that one.

As Serleran mentioned, multi-class characters are always going to be more flexible than a single class, which is why many don't like them and why I'm very careful when allowing them. In fact, the only time I ever allow one is when a player comes to me with a really good concept which I either can't or won't emulate any other way.

As for advancing too fast (in my system at least) you can easily change the 25% xp penalty to whatever you feel balances things for your game. Also, if you want things a little closer to Gary's system you could allow humans to have three classes instead of just the two that I allowed; the system will work either way. I just never saw the need for three class. Most of those concepts were generally about more power and not more fun.

TheNewGuy · Post by **TheNewGuy** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:13 pm

Is there any consensus of opinion on which multiclass system mentioned here is the most balanced?

I'm not a huge fan of multiclassing -- as most players only seem to want it as a power-gaming advantage, not a character concept -- but I _do_ see the occasional request for fighter/spellcaster hybrids (with the spellcasting typically lesser compared to a "true, full-class" mage), since this archetype is fairly common in the fantasy literature players read and love (cf. Moorcock, et al).

Just wondering if there's a balanced way to enact this which still retains the essential C&C simplicity and ease-of-use, among all the options mentioned previously.

TheNewGuy
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:30 pm

TheNewGuy wrote:
Is there any consensus of opinion on which multiclass system mentioned here is the most balanced?

I

Consensus? Of opinion on Multi-classing?

AHAHAHAHAAA!
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Where are the Multiclass rules?

Where are the Multiclass rules?

rock on

Re: Where are the Multiclass rules?