4E is a clone of C&C?!?!?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:53 pm

"Originally Posted by d10

My feelings on 3e VS.4e are thus; In 3e your imagination was limited only by the ruleset, in 4e the ruleset is limited only by your imagination. Just because something isn't printed in the one of the three core rulebooks dosen't mean it isn't possible. The ruleset is simple, yet comprehensive, enough to become intuitive. Which in turn opens the game up to limitless possibilities gameplay wise. Which I think is the true genious driving 4E D&D.

As a DM who more often than not ended up "winging" large portions of his campaigns, mostly because my players would often do things I could never have expected, I welcome 4E with open arms. For when that situation occurs now, I'll no longer have to stop the game and look for some obscure rule. I can simply keep the game going and in doing so keep myself and group entertained."

DD, JG, and the rest, why didn't you tell us? Is the SIEGE engine hidden inside of 4E?

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:40 am

Treebore wrote:
Is the SIEGE engine hidden inside of 4E?

Hmmm. Now that you mention it. Several abilities get to add a bonus of 1/2 level. Not +1 per level like those high powered C&C characters.
Honestly though, the game is pretty easy to adjudicate now that we're getting the hang of it.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:44 am

*chuckles* And this is only the 20th time the subject has come up too.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:46 am

As far as redundancies go though, it was bound to be this or the 104th Combat Dominance thread.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:48 am

What we really need is more cross-dressing Rhu threads.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:08 am

Treebore wrote:
"

DD, JG, and the rest, why didn't you tell us? Is the SIEGE engine hidden inside of 4E?

Hadn't seen the books yet. Interesting though.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:08 am

Treebore wrote:
"

DD, JG, and the rest, why didn't you tell us? Is the SIEGE engine hidden inside of 4E?

Hadn't seen the books yet. Interesting though.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:49 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* And this is only the 20th time the subject has come up too.

What? You Trolls knew they were cloning C&C?
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Zulgyan · Post by **Zulgyan** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:58 am

I can't believe when people say 4e is simple and intuitive. Get hold of old editions of D&D for Christ's sake!

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:53 pm

Zulgyan wrote:
Get hold of old editions of D&D for Christ's sake!

I dunno. My group's primary gaming is done playing 2nd edition and BECMI D&D.

Fun as hell? yes.

Great games? Yes.

Simple and intuitive? Eh....

Even BECMI D&D is a wonderfully complex system with a multitude of little nuances.

They aren't so much inuitive by design as they are intuitive due to us playing them for a couple decades.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:03 pm

Quote:
What? You Trolls knew they were cloning C&C?

Umm, you know that Star Wars thing they did not too long ago? How many people were saying how "C&C-like" it was? Well, umm, yeah... since that was the forerunner of D&D. However, it doesn't mean 4e is a "clone." There are countless games that have countless similar mechanics - some ways of handling things are just easier (not necessarily better.)

adaen · Post by **adaen** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:44 pm

Now I'm convinced to buy it again....ugggh
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:29 pm

Even if 4e were a direct clone, it would not make me want to buy it - why? Because I already have it, for one (being a clone, to me, is not a selling point - it implies absolutely no creativity or uniqueness.) And for two, the mechanics might be identical (they are not), but the focus on something entirely different -- its like cars. Many are built with the same frame and chassis, but a Cadillac is not a Corvette.

Coleston the Cavalier · Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:40 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
What we really need is more cross-dressing Rhu threads.

Indeed! I was also quite found of the one that degenerated into a discussion of bikini clad, elven gals who spank.
Can I go to LGGC IV yet?
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:47 pm

Yeah, I was using the quote as a "tongue in cheek" kind of joke anyways.

I know it isn't as simple and intuitive as C&C is. I just find it funny that they claim 4E is simple and intuitive. From what I have been reading it isn't, and is only going to become more complex.

Plus I found it funny because the same claims were made about 3E. I remember the many rules arguments going on at my gaming store at the time, especially about AoO.

So I know 4E is not simple and intuitive, I am just amused that people think it is. Which it may be, in comparison to 3E. I just know it isn't in comparison to C&C and a few other games around.

Besides, I know of no game that is "intuitive" right away. I just know of games that quickly become intuitive as you gain an understanding of how it works.

So the big joke to me is that 4E is described the same way I would describe C&C. Unlike 4E, C&C is much cheaper, really is easier, and once you get the SIEGE engine is very intuitive. So I find it very funny that a 3 book set that costs 3 times as much, and has nearly 4 times the page count is described the same way I think of C&C.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:52 pm

adaen wrote:
Now I'm convinced to buy it again....ugggh

I wouldn't. Unless you don't find C&C is simple and is now very intuitive to you.

Like I said in my last post, I did the quote because I found it extremely funny in a ironic manner. 4E is not simple and intuitive, unless (maybe) you compare it to 3E, Rolemaster, Paladium Fantasy, GURPS, and the like.

So unless you really want to just check it out like any other game, I wouldn't buy 4E until you get to look at the 4E SRD equivelant.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:04 pm

Treebore wrote:
What? You Trolls knew they were cloning C&C?

No, its just the 20th time or more that its been brought up on the boards. Usually someone prattling on about the Star Wars Saga stuff. Good grief folks, its not rocket science. There are only so many ways that people can put together mechanical engines.

There are even a few things I thought of for my own house rules on magic, that I haven't brought up on any message board or email anywhere, that are present in 4e.

All it proves is that great minds think alike, or, some things are so bone head obvious that anyone could have come up with it.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:10 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
All it proves is that great minds think alike, or, some things are so bone head obvious that anyone could have come up with it.

OR, it is irrefutable proof that WotC is in possession of powerful, thought stealing satellites!

adaen · Post by **adaen** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:17 pm

Treebore wrote:
I wouldn't. Unless you don't find C&C is simple and is now very intuitive to you.

Like I said in my last post, I did the quote because I found it extremely funny in a ironic manner. 4E is not simple and intuitive, unless (maybe) you compare it to 3E, Rolemaster, Paladium Fantasy, GURPS, and the like.

So unless you really want to just check it out like any other game, I wouldn't buy 4E until you get to look at the 4E SRD equivelant.

I wouldn't buy it for its simplicity (as compared to C&C). I am a rules junky and I see it as a valuable source from which to mine ideas. All the games you listed are games that I find enjoyable (for different reasons). C&C is not the best system for everything, but for pickup games it is hard to beat.

Actually, C&C's main appeal to me is that it is a complete game that is very easy to customize (unlike, say FUDGE which some might argue is not complete in and of itself).
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:19 pm

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
Indeed! I was also quite found of the one that degenerated into a discussion of bikini clad, elven gals who spank.

How about latex & leather clad femdom elf gals who spank?

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:58 pm

I bought the core books to idea mine and have read through the high points of the rules. I am not entirely unimpressed but neither am I planning on dropping my existing games for this. It has strong points and weak, but with a fair amount of complexity still in place, I would stick with WFRP over 4e any day even though they are similar in complexity. C&C is far simpler than 4e, any claims to the contrary that may be made notwithstanding.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:23 pm

adaen wrote:
I wouldn't buy it for its simplicity (as compared to C&C). I am a rules junky and I see it as a valuable source from which to mine ideas. All the games you listed are games that I find enjoyable (for different reasons). C&C is not the best system for everything, but for pickup games it is hard to beat.

Actually, C&C's main appeal to me is that it is a complete game that is very easy to customize (unlike, say FUDGE which some might argue is not complete in and of itself).

Well, to be a little clearer in so far as where I am coming from, I own a ton of 3E, a good bit of GURPS, a lot of Paladium Fantasy, some Rolemaster, A lot of HARP, some Harn, a good bit of MERP, etc... Not to mention most of all editions of D&D.

So I understand the buying rules and at least mining them for ideas part. I have also played every game for at least 4 gaming sessions, and some of them I have played a LOT.

Either way, they are great for ideas. I love C&C because it has turned out to be the perfect foundation for my perfect fantasy RPG. Plus it worked well for my C&Cized Traveller game too. So I think we are definitely coming from a similar direction/view.
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adaen · Post by **adaen** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:40 pm

Treebore wrote:
...snip....

Either way, they are great for ideas. I love C&C because it has turned out to be the perfect foundation for my perfect fantasy RPG. Plus it worked well for my C&Cized Traveller game too. So I think we are definitely coming from a similar direction/view.

Treebore, due to your prolific posting, I came to that same conclusion quite a while ago.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:58 pm

adaen wrote:
Treebore, due to your prolific posting, I came to that same conclusion quite a while ago.

Good!
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:20 pm

You know, in just a few months, C&C will be a clone of 4e.

cinderblock · Post by **cinderblock** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:45 pm

Perish the thought.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:52 pm

It has nothing to do with the Trolls or what (or won't) be released: no! It has to do with reverse thinking, where anything "new" is always better than anything "old." It won't matter that, chronologically, C&C existed before 4e... quite the opposite. That will be its downfall.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:19 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Hmmm. Now that you mention it. Several abilities get to add a bonus of 1/2 level. Not +1 per level like those high powered C&C characters.

I saw that. It is an interesting idea for a more gritty C&C game though. Or 1/2 level for non-prime checks. ETC, etc...This has some possibilities.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:56 am

Meh.

In order to make an informed decision about things, I had to *ahem*...acquire copies of the core rulebooks. I did the same thing with d20 Fantasy ages ago, only that time around I bought the darn books, expecting the game Hasbro produced would be close enough to the game I remembered that I might enjoy it. I'm simply not impressed with what Hasbro produces. If it had the name "World of Warcraft" on it, and if it were physically in my possession instead of a computer file located on a hard drive, I'd probably give it to my roommate, just as I bought for her copies of the core Everquest rulebooks when she needed cheering up.

Even OSRIC is more palatable than this crap, and that's saying a hell of a lot from me. So...can we can this thread please, because it's getting just a little tiring seeing talk of 4E this and 4E that. It also reminds me of just how old I feel right now.

Signed,

One Very Grouchy Traveller
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adaen · Post by **adaen** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:18 am

Traveller wrote:
Meh.

Even OSRIC is more palatable than this crap, and that's saying a hell of a lot from me. So...can we can this thread please, because it's getting just a little tiring seeing talk of 4E this and 4E that. It also reminds me of just how old I feel right now.

Signed,

One Very Grouchy Traveller

What's wrong with Osric?
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Osric?