Are there any news on AGP?

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:42 am

Sorry Peter, I'm not a lawyer but the legal intent of this phrase seems pretty clear:

Quote:
and ensure that third party affiliates of Licensee cease their publication, distribution and sale

At least it says "product line," so if Wilderlands is kept OGL then James would be in the clear, but if they go with even one 4e (like Tegel Manor) then EVERYTHING licensed will have to. Pretty much the scenario we were afraid of.

It probably also means the end of C&C conversions for DCC mods I fear.

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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:46 am

Looks like a legal pit trap. I've read it two or three times and what I have come to is this example:

Goodman games moves the DCC line to 4e. It can retcon all prior DCC's to 4e but cannot print new ones for 3e under the terms. It also has to cease production of the 3e DCC's as soon as it can. Also since the license states "Licensee explicitly agrees that it will not thereafter manufacture or publish any portion of the Converted OGL Product Line, or any products that would be considered part of a Converted OGL Product Line (as reasonably determined by Wizards) pursuant to the OGL."

Then, if I am reading this right, the C&C conversions of the DCC's can no longer be produced. Especially sinister to me is this: as reasonably determined by Wizards. To me this says "We decide what can or can't be printed". I could be off on all this since I am no lawyer but it doesn't sound good for companies that want to make product for both 3e/OGL and 4e. Especially since, by my understanding, WOTC decides if the whole is compliant with the license. One product sells better than they like a small company is faced with a Hasbro legal team. Basically, the opening for abuse by WOTC is too much since they can bully what gets sold by pure dollars and funding.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:49 am

*chuckles* There's some smug comments being made by the authors of the forthcoming Pathfinder rpg. Those with legitimate house systems have naught to worry over.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:50 am

seskis281 wrote:
Sorry Peter, I'm not a lawyer but the legal intent of this phrase seems pretty clear:

At least it says "product line," so if Wilderlands is kept OGL then James would be in the clear, but if they go with even one 4e (like Tegel Manor) then EVERYTHING licensed will have to. Pretty much the scenario we were afraid of.

It probably also means the end of C&C conversions for DCC mods I fear.

Probably. It certainly means a 4th Edition DCC means that no 3.x DCCs will be reprinted ever. However, since C&C is considered OGL, it would stand to reason it gets tossed aside too. I hope the latest (and last?) C&C conversion gets out the door.

I'm sure there will be some talk on other forums such as Goodman Games in the next few days.

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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:52 am

All in all, if I had a good solid house system I stick with the OGL. If I wanted to create a house system I'd still go with the OGL. In the end it looks to be the most free and easy to use.

I'm pretty much staying with TLG for the long haul.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:57 am

moriarty777 wrote:
Probably. It certainly means a 4th Edition DCC means that no 3.x DCCs will be reprinted ever. However, since C&C is considered OGL, it would stand to reason it gets tossed aside too. I hope the latest (and last?) C&C conversion gets out the door.

Maybe they sell the old DCC line to TLG? Probably won't work though. I do know this: It's this type of policy that turns me off WOTC. It's not the rules it's the damn politics and attitude. If the case is going to be that they begin strong arming the 3rd parties to the new edition then I don't buy anything related to the new edition. I'm thinking I'll be supporting OGL based companies from now on.
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seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:02 am

Of course Goodman would be free to publish a separate line just for C&C, as could anyone. Not sure I see Goodman having the energy to do this, I'm afraid, tho I suspect there are some of us out there who'd volunteer to submit stuff. I think the Green Ronin Freeport stuff will continue on its multi-system endeavor and avoid 4e altogether.

Peter's right on a major point - it doesn't affect Paizo or TLG really, unless either make a 4e product at all, and then it would have to be made a clear and specifically distinct product line from all other products (which WotC could potentially challenge given the language above). Now, I don't see that as a primary problem for the Trolls... hell, even continue the d20 Cult of Yex line as is for those now looking for new material on that end.

As far as C&C goes, James is in the biggest bind waiting on the Wilderland decision. I really hope Necro/Judges Guild doesn't try to go 4e, not only because AGP will be in the clear, but I think retooling all that material would be counter-productive and I doubt as profitable as continuing to support that line as OGL.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:08 am

Personally, and you can print and show this to Bob Jr.; I think the Wilderlands would benefit more attached to C&C than it would OGL, d20 or 4e. The system is similar to the system JG printed for in the past. It is compatable with most past and current (at least to 3e) systems and has a horde of fans that would buy like crazy.

Judges Guild goes to 4e and you can count me buying out.

Quote:
Peter's right on a major point - it doesn't affect Paizo or TLG really, unless either make a 4e product at all, and then it would have to be made a clear and specifically distinct product line from all other products (which WotC could potentially challenge given the language above). Now, I don't see that as a primary problem for the Trolls... hell, even continue the d20 Cult of Yex line as is for those now looking for new material on that end.

It does look like the Cult of Yex could be continued on as is. However, the coming months will be the acid test on how WOTC handles the license. There may be some nasty business happen that makes TLG go strictly C&C and LA for everything and drop any normal D20/OGL work.
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seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:44 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
Personally, and you can print and show this to Bob Jr.; I think the Wilderlands would benefit more attached to C&C than it would OGL, d20 or 4e. The system is similar to the system JG printed for in the past. It is compatable with most past and current (at least to 3e) systems and has a horde of fans that would buy like crazy.

Judges Guild goes to 4e and you can count me buying out.

It does look like the Cult of Yex could be continued on as is. However, the coming months will be the acid test on how WOTC handles the license. There may be some nasty business happen that makes TLG go strictly C&C and LA for everything and drop any normal D20/OGL work.

Hmm, intersting that Wilderlands also affects Goodman and their JG products as well. If Bob Jr. doesn't go 4e it stays a multi-system line. And I wonder if this will change things for Goodman... I notice the 4e Free RPG Day DCC preview cover is no longer front and center on their site tonight.... and aren't they also introducing their own house system now, Eldritch?

Intersting... and this could actually end up being a real boon for 3rd party publishers...

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:47 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
I dunno. It says that one company cant do a product line for ogl and gsl.

But does it say an ip holder of a given product line has to stick to either or? Or is it company by company?

JG is one company, Goodman is another, AGP is yet another, Necro is yet another...

If WOTC tried to control all such "Creativity" it would certainly be open to a legal challenge. Why? Because if they try to control a company via the scenario your painting, WOTC would be exercising defacto control of someone elses business. That is illegal and has been for close to 100 years now.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:49 am

seskis281 wrote:
I notice the 4e Free RPG Day DCC preview cover is no longer front and center on their site tonight.... and aren't they also introducing their own house system now, Eldritch?

Eldritch is a completely different kettle of fish. For one thing, its not an ogl game. I should know, I have copies cause I did the cover art.
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Geoffrey · Post by **Geoffrey** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:35 am

All of the following is merely my understanding of the facts. I might be in error on these points.

1. James releasing C&C Wilderlands stuff is imperiled ONLY if someone is allowed to publish a 4E Wilderlands product.

2. The only one (that I'm aware of) wanting to release a 4E Wilderlands product is Necromancer Games.

3. Clark has a number of times on the Necromancer boards mentioned that Necromancer's line of Wilderlands products did NOT sell well, and that Tegel Manor would be the LAST Wilderlands product published by Necromancer.

4. It does not make sense to sacrifice James's entire business plan so Necromancer can publish ONE Wilderlands product (i. e., a 4E Tegel).

I hope Clark would not torpedo James's ENTIRE LINE of C&C Wilderlands products simply and solely so he could publish ONE Wilderlands product (that probably wouldn't make him much if any money, anyway).

Clark has in his hands the completed 3.5 edition Tegel Manor, done by none other than Melan. Clark should publish that instead of wasting the time and resources to convert Tegel to 4E.

Just the thought of sacrificing EVERYTHING for a single 4E Wilderlands product boggles the mind.

Considering all of the above, I hope and trust that the current owners of the Wilderlands recognize that it would be a dead end to allow Clark to do a 4E Tegel Manor.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:43 am

Geoffrey wrote:
All of the following is merely my understanding of the facts. I might be in error on these points.

1. James releasing C&C Wilderlands stuff is imperiled ONLY if someone is allowed to publish a 4E Wilderlands product.

2. The only one (that I'm aware of) wanting to release a 4E Wilderlands product is Necromancer Games.

3. Clark has a number of times on the Necromancer boards mentioned that Necromancer's line of Wilderlands products did NOT sell well, and that Tegel Manor would be the LAST Wilderlands product published by Necromancer.

4. It does not make sense to sacrifice James's entire business plan so Necromancer can publish ONE Wilderlands product (i. e., a 4E Tegel).

I hope Clark would not torpedo James's ENTIRE LINE of C&C Wilderlands products simply and solely so he could publish ONE Wilderlands product (that probably wouldn't make him much if any money, anyway).

Clark has in his hands the completed 3.5 edition Tegel Manor, done by none other than Melan. Clark should publish that instead of wasting the time and resources to convert Tegel to 4E.

Just the though of sacrificing EVERYTHING for a single 4E Wilderlands product boggles the mind.

Actually the decision is in Bob II's hands, not Clarks. Plus it also depends on how WOTC wants to control a sub license of a license. WOTC should in no way be able to control Bob II's rights to license JG products to whomever he wants under any license.

So I suspect Bob will be able to license Tegal to Necromancer and license JAmes to do his thing, etc...

If there will be any limitation it would be that Necromancer can only do a 4E version of Tegal, but Bob should still be able to license any other company not under the GSL to do a 3E version, C&C version, etc...

So as long as Bob himself doesn't have to agree to the GSL in order to license JG products to Necromancer/Goodman/Eostros/etc... AGP should be good to go. Even with a C&C version of Tegal Manor, since only the company who publishes the 4E version would be restricted by the GSL.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:57 am

I hope that is true. However Necro has a pretty hard one for 4e and it wouldn't surprise me to see them do Tegel for 4e.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:15 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
I hope that is true. However Necro has a pretty hard one for 4e and it wouldn't surprise me to see them do Tegel for 4e.

That is still up to Bob. Clark even said that himself over on the Necro boards in a GSL discussion a couple of months ago.

It appears Bob II won't be controlled by the GSL, unless he publishes something under the 4E GSL himself. So I think he'll be able to issue as many licenses as he wants, and it will be the responsibility of those who publish under the GSL to adhere to it, not Bob's.

So if I am right James and AGP will be able to continue as intended.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:17 am

Like I said, I hope you are. One thing is for sure; The new GSL is going to make a lot of Lawyers some money.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:22 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
One thing is for sure; The new GSL is going to make a lot of Lawyers some money.

Very likely! Just how those b*&#@$%@ds planned it too!
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Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:15 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
I hope that is true. However Necro has a pretty hard one for 4e and it wouldn't surprise me to see them do Tegel for 4e.

Orcus aka Clark Peterson posting at ENWorld wrote:
Clearly, as I understand that existing license, there wont be a "Tome of Horrors" for 4E. I'm not losing the right to make an OGL version. Period. In fact, I am pretty sure that I will be announcing a full color Pathfinder version of the Tome of Horrors shortly. That said, I am still considering a monster book for 4E.

Pretty big turnabout there, and it impacts on the Tegel book as well I think.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:27 pm

Now that's some good news for use Necromancer fans who AREN'T going 4e.

-O
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:13 pm

Course, tis funny that the way a 4e stat block is to be indicated, makes it pretty compatible with any edition.

To wit (insert type of critter here) x however many. example: orcs 5

This so the DM needs to reference the monster book. But the way its noted, one can pretty well use any monster book from any system.
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dachda · Post by **dachda** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:59 pm

Treebore wrote:
Very likely! Just how those b*&#@$%@ds planned it too!

Don't forget a lawyer is restricted to what his/her client wants and authorizes him/her to do. The problem is WOTC, not the lawyers. (the law student sheepishly reminds everyone )
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Geoffrey · Post by **Geoffrey** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:02 am

A quote from Necromancer's Clark Peterson on 6-18-08:

"There are also some singinficant unaswered questions regarding Tegel Manor. I just got off the phone with Bob Jr. Wizards is going to have to give us some very clear answers to some questions before Tegel can be a 4E product. It may well not be a 4E product. Now, that doesnt mean it will be a 3E product either. Its hard to say. That one is back up in the air, and a lot of the decision on this will be up to Bob not me. I certainly am not going to tie up JG content with a license if it means something bad for Bob."

(link: http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/9643 )

Melan · Post by **Melan** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:44 pm

Well (back from Norway), thanks for the clarification, James. Frankly, I would not touch the new "license" with a 10' pole mounted on another 10' pole. It is a rotten deal, for a rotten game... let whoever wants to take it, take it.

How about bridging the wait with non-JG related but old-school products? It seems to me that if AGP can't keep itself going, it will not generate new customers; it will alienate and shed old ones. And with a great start, I pretty much hope this doesn't happen.

Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:52 pm

I'm miffed that Dungeon Crawl Classics now ends up as 4E, which means no more Castles & Crusades conversions (unless someone has news to the contrary). BTW, is anyone else reminded of some other famous company doing something very similar as Hasbro (since I think this whole deal came from them and not most of the folks at WotC) before they got the relative snot pounded out of them...a computer company named for a fruit whose head honcho was Mister Egomaniac?

I personally hope every single suit at Hasbro that foisted the GSL upon the gaming community has to smoke a turd in Hell.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:46 pm

Keolander wrote:
I'm miffed that Dungeon Crawl Classics now ends up as 4E, which means no more Castles & Crusades conversions (unless someone has news to the contrary). BTW, is anyone else reminded of some other famous company doing something very similar as Hasbro (since I think this whole deal came from them and not most of the folks at WotC) before they got the relative snot pounded out of them...a computer company named for a fruit whose head honcho was Mister Egomaniac?

I personally hope every single suit at Hasbro that foisted the GSL upon the gaming community has to smoke a turd in Hell.

Well, there certainly is hope for more C&C from Goodman. I just spoked to the main man about it an hour ago. He's up here visiting LGGC IV.
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:07 pm

Good news, and I'd personally prefer "Original" modules over conversions any day!

Well...mostly. I still dream of a C&C Rappan Athuk.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:08 pm

sieg wrote:
Well...mostly. I still dream of a C&C Rappan Athuk.

Clark has made it repeatedly clear that it will never happen. We RA fans who play C&C will have to do it.

I am glad to hear that I may still be able to give Goodman some business in the future. As it is I am completely uninterested in any of the 4E market line. From any company.

The GSL ruined something for me. I can't explain what it is, but it made me totally uncaring about 4E, WOTC, and Hasbro. I even sold my Hasbro stock the day before yesterday because of it. Stock I have owned for about 8 years.

I guess I have simply lost belief. Meaning I don't believe that 4E and WOTC are D&D anymore. Its like Lorraine Williams has returned to TSR.

I don't know. I'll figure it out eventually.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:23 pm

I hope Goodman sticks with something for C&C and I like the idea of new mods from them. I wonder how interested Paizo will be in C&C now that they have Pathfinder? Also does anyone know if Green Ronin still plans on doing the C&C Freeport stuff?

As for Necro, I guess this is where I just give up, I've decided to stick with my plan of just supporting C&C. There's going to be a lot of things hitting this year and I want to support the game I play. Not a game someone else makes. So for the next year or so I just buy stuff with a C&C logo or SIEGE logo on it.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:25 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
Also does anyone know if Green Ronin still plans on doing the C&C Freeport stuff?

.

From what I understand, its one of the next projects in line.
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:55 am

Is it possible for Goodman to give Hasbro (who I think is the real culprit with the poison pill clause) the virtual middle finger by publishing 'Classic Dungeon Crawls' for 3.X and C&C while 'Dungeon Crawl Classics' continues as a 4E line?
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