A Question about races' ability modifiers

[Lord Dynel]

Elves have "Enhanced Senses" that gives them a +2 to listen checks. This is for all elves. At the end of the elves description, on page 34, it lists a +2 listen under the "Rogue and Assassin Modifier" heading.

It does similar things for Gnomes ("Enhanced Hearing" giving a +3 to listen checks and "Rogue and Assassin Modifier" also lists a +3), Halflings (for Move Silently) among others.

Forgive me if this is a silly question, but this has caused me a wee bit of confusion. Is the listen bonus for Elves Enhanced Senses just repeated on the Rogue and Assassin Modifier (at the end of the elf write-up)? Or do elves get a +2 listen (from Enhanced Senses) and another +2 with the Rogue and Assassin Modifier (assuming they are rogues or assassins)?

I'm thinking it's the former, and the modifier at the end of the racial description is just summerizing the +2 that's granted in the description, but I want to get it correct.

[gideon_thorne]

The modifiers listed are for when a member of that race is part of a given listed class.

If the character doesn't have one of those listed classes, they just get the +2 to listen as an elf, and so forth. It doesn't stack.

Now, thats the semi official answer.

I, of course, house rule it different. If a race has a given modifier, they get it as an ability no matter what class they are.
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Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

So are they meant to stack? Ie get the +2 for being an elf, and an additional +2 if they are also a thief?
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[Lord Dynel]

Okay, so they're not doubled, correct?

If I played an elf assassin, I wouldn't get a +2 for the enhanced senses and another +2 because I'm an assassin?

Edit: What Treebore said.

[serleran]

This is one of those places where the intent is not entirely clear - Peter is right: they are not meant to stack. The one replaces the other, if you are that class, else you get the standard (think of it as an extra +1, for example.) I, however, do allow them to add together -- makes them far more archetypal and interesting.

[Treebore]

serleran wrote:
This is one of those places where the intent is not entirely clear - Peter is right: they are not meant to stack. The one replaces the other, if you are that class, else you get the standard (think of it as an extra +1, for example.) I, however, do allow them to add together -- makes them far more archetypal and interesting.

Mentioning them twice like that would indicate to me they would stack. Otherwise, whats the point of listing them twice? Elf gets +2 to listen, nuff said.
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[Lord Dynel]

serleran wrote:
This is one of those places where the intent is not entirely clear - Peter is right: they are not meant to stack. The one replaces the other, if you are that class, else you get the standard (think of it as an extra +1, for example.) I, however, do allow them to add together -- makes them far more archetypal and interesting.

Aha...gotcha. However...

Treebore wrote:
Mentioning them twice like that would indicate to me they would stack. Otherwise, whats the point of listing them twice? Elf gets +2 to listen, nuff said.

See that's what I think. I first thought, "Maybe they're only mentioning rogues and assassins at the end because those are the two classes with the listen class ability." But I agree with you, Treebore, why would it be mentioned twice? It could easily be said that elves get a +2 and that be the end of the story. But yeah, serleran, the intent is a little foggy.

[serleran]

The point, Treebore, is to say: all members of Race X get Y to Z, but Race X who are also Class A get B to Z, instead. It was confused in execution, not reason.

[Treebore]

But the way it is written is confusing the issue. Why say that elves get a +2 to listen, then write this:

Ranger modifier: +2 move silent, +2 to find traps

Rogue and Assassin modifier: +2 listen, +2 move silent,

+2 Find traps

That indicates, to me, that a Ranger would not get an additional +2 to listen checks, but a thief or Assassin would.

So that indicated to me that an elven thief or assassin would get a total of +4 to listen, and that a Elven Ranger would only get the basic +2 that all elves get.

Hence the confusion.
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[Lord Dynel]

Treebore wrote:
But the way it is written is confusing the issue. Why say that elves get a +2 to listen, then write this:

Ranger modifier: +2 move silent, +2 to find traps

Rogue and Assassin modifier: +2 listen, +2 move silent,

+2 Find traps

That indicates, to me, that a Ranger would not get an additional +2 to listen checks, but a thief or Assassin would.

So that indicated to me that an elven thief or assassin would get a total of +4 to listen, and that a Elven Ranger would only get the basic +2 that all elves get.

Hence the confusion.

You voiced my confusion better that I did.

Glad to see I'm not the only one a little perplexed by this.

[serleran]

Yes, I agree it is confusing. There are some instances of this in the PHB - I hope it can be addressed in the 4th print.

[gideon_thorne]

Treebore wrote:
So are they meant to stack? Ie get the +2 for being an elf, and an additional +2 if they are also a thief?

As I said, they don't stack.

And, in answer to the original question. If an elf is part of the thief or assassin class, they get the +2 to move silently. However. Remember that the elven race ability to move silently is specifically in wilderness areas. Says so right in the book. This ability they get no matter what. Its only when they are a member of those specific classes does it go up +2
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

Ah, so what it all really means that elves get these bonus' in "woodland areas", but if they take these classes they get the +2 whenever the check is rolled, even if its not in woodland areas?

IE an elven fighter would not get the +2 in a underground dungeon, but an elf who took one of these classes, does?
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[Lord Dynel]

Okay, so let me know if I have this correct:

Elf Commoner - +2 to move silently in wilderness surroundings.

Elf Warrior - +2 to move silently in wilderness surroundings.

Elf Cleric - +2 to move silently in wilderness surroundings.

Elf Thief - +2 to move silently in all circumstances.

Elf Assassin - +2 to move silently in all circumstances.

By the way, thanks to everyone, so far, for their insights.

[Jackal]

Lord Dynel wrote:
Okay, so let me know if I have this correct:

Elf Commoner - +2 to move silently in wilderness surroundings.

Elf Warrior - +2 to move silently in wilderness surroundings.

Elf Cleric - +2 to move silently in wilderness surroundings.

Elf Thief - +2 to move silently in all circumstances.

Elf Assassin - +2 to move silently in all circumstances.

By the way, thanks to everyone, so far, for their insights.

Not quite. The elf commoner, warrior and cleric have the ability to move silently in woodland settings with no bonus. The elf thief and assassin have the ability to move silently in any situation (class ability) and also gain a +2 for being an elf (think of this as what you get for your wilderness move silently becoming worthless).

As for stacking, I know that's correct since I had the same conversation with Mac during playtesting. So, while confusing, they are not meant to stack. The reason for the confusing way of listing things is so you know when you get a bonus all the time or when you only get it as a member of a given class (which is why the +2 to move silently isn't listed twice, while the +2 to listen checks is...see below).

On the listening question, it is important to note that elves (assuming the CK allows it per page 112) get the +2 to listen checks even if they aren't rogues. They don't add their level when making such checks and even if they pass can't hear as well as a rogue, but they always get the +2 any time the CK allows an elf (rogue or not) to "listen" for something which requires a check.

[Lord Dynel]

I think I got it....but i have a few more questions.

Elves can move silently in natural surroundings. But can't anyone try to do that as well (assuming you're using the rules on pg. 112, thus allowing a PC to try a non-class ability)?

In other words if I'm a level 2 elf fighter, with a dexterity modifier of +1, I can try to move silently in natural surroundings with a total +1 to my check, correct (no level modifier)? But lets replace the "elf" with "human." Doesn't he also get a +1 to moving silently?

The way I'm looking at it, is that if you use the rule that allows a PC to attempt a non-class ability, then it will lessen the elf's racial to Move Silently (unless I'm missing something).

Okay, on the the listening. The racial entry for Enhanced Senses states a +2 to Listen checks. At the end of the elf description, it states elf rogues and assassins get a +2 to listen. This is just reapeated, for posterity, and the two +2's do not stack. It's just summerizing, I assume?

[tex]

I find it gratifying that this very subject has come up again a week after I tried to make a case that the rules about class ability "infringement" as I was interpreting them were terribly strange.

Anyway, I think racial and class abilities are "created equal" in the sense that they don't "interfere" with eachother in the way you describe.

As I understand it, here's the by-the-book procedure for your question:

1) Is the character trying to do something that would satisfy the definition of some racial or class ability? If not, proceed to step 2, else proceed to step 3.

2) The CK is free to decide whether character level should modify the roll. Stop.

3) Does the character have that ability? If yes, proceed to step 5, else proceed to step 4.

4) Either do not allow the action at all, or else do not modify the roll by the character level. Stop.

5) Modify the roll by the character level. Stop.

Lord Dynel wrote:
In other words if I'm a level 2 elf fighter, with a dexterity modifier of +1, I can try to move silently in natural surroundings with a total +1 to my check, correct (no level modifier)? But lets replace the "elf" with "human." Doesn't he also get a +1 to moving silently?

Not quite: Because the elf has the racial ability to move silently, you apply the level bonus to the roll, which provides an additional +2.

A human fighter doesn't have the class nor racial ability to move silently, so you don't apply the character's level to the roll.

[tex]

Lord Dynel wrote:
Okay, on the the listening. The racial entry for Enhanced Senses states a +2 to Listen checks. At the end of the elf description, it states elf rogues and assassins get a +2 to listen. This is just reapeated, for posterity, and the two +2's do not stack. It's just summerizing, I assume?

Yep, you got it. The text isn't very clear on this, but I think they're not intended to stack. It's sort of a "quick reminder" rather than an additional bonus.

[Lord Dynel]

tex wrote:
Yep, you got it. The text isn't very clear on this, but I think they're not intended to stack. It's sort of a "quick reminder" rather than an additional bonus.

Yay! Go me!
Okay...

Quote:
Not quite: Because the elf has the racial ability to move silently, you apply the level bonus to the roll, which provides an additional +2.

A human fighter doesn't have the class nor racial ability to move silently, so you don't apply the character's level to the roll.

Emphasis mine.

Is that printed in the rules somewhere, or is that just accepted knowledge?

So the elf in question (a fighter, in my previous example) would get to add his level to the roll because he technically does have the ability to move silently (in natural surroundings). If he was a ranger, rogue, or assassin, he could add an additional +2 for the elven ability (plus his level, plus his dexterity modifier). Is that right?

And listen works the same way, I presume? An elf fighter could ass his level because he has the ability to listen, albeit a racial ability (as opposed to a class ability)? If that is so, then I wonder why the trolls went to the trouble of printing again at the bottom of the description? Unless it was done so for quick reference (which would make me wonder why it doesn't just say "All Elves: +2 Listen")

[tex]

Lord Dynel wrote:
Is that printed in the rules somewhere, or is that just accepted knowledge?

Actually, I guess I can't find definitive proof on this in the PHB. Maybe I missed it? Can anyone provide a page reference? If there really is no proof then it's probably up to CK discretion, but that really surprises me.

Quote:
So the elf in question (a fighter, in my previous example) would get to add his level to the roll because he technically does have the ability to move silently (in natural surroundings). If he was a ranger, rogue, or assassin, he could add an additional +2 for the elven ability (plus his level, plus his dexterity modifier). Is that right?

I think that's correct -- explicit guidence on how and when to apply racial modifiers don't seem to exist, but on the other hand, your interpretation makes good sense: All elves are good at stealth, but elven rogues, assassins, and rangers are especially good at stealth.

Quote:
And listen works the same way, I presume? An elf fighter could ass his level . . .

Do what to his level? I didn't know that word was a verb. O_o

Quote:
because he has the ability to listen, albeit a racial ability (as opposed to a class ability)?

Well . . . no, I don't think so. They get Enhanced Senses, not Listen. Part of the effect of Enhanced Senses is +2 to all checks both "involving listening." Since Enhanced Senses doesn't have the "(attribute)" notation in the title, it's not really the kind of thing that's supposed to get a check and have explicit effects when the check is successful, so I would say it's not eligible for modification by character level.

Quote:
If that is so, then I wonder why the trolls went to the trouble of printing again at the bottom of the description? Unless it was done so for quick reference (which would make me wonder why it doesn't just say "All Elves: +2 Listen")

Who can ponder their mysterious ways? : P I think you're right, that it's intended to be a reminder rather than an additional bonus. It is kind of tucked away in the Enhanced Senses ability, which has other effects besides the bonus to Listen.

Have you been to the Keeper thread yet? That's the place to go "Hey, what did you official designer types actually mean?" Ordinary mortals such as ourselves are not permitted to post there so you're garaunteed to get only official word on what the rules are meant to say.

[gideon_thorne]

Lord Dynel wrote:
I think I got it....but i have a few more questions.

Elves can move silently in natural surroundings. But can't anyone try to do that as well (assuming you're using the rules on pg. 112, thus allowing a PC to try a non-class ability)?

In other words if I'm a level 2 elf fighter, with a dexterity modifier of +1, I can try to move silently in natural surroundings with a total +1 to my check, correct (no level modifier)? But lets replace the "elf" with "human." Doesn't he also get a +1 to moving silently?

The way I'm looking at it, is that if you use the rule that allows a PC to attempt a non-class ability, then it will lessen the elf's racial to Move Silently (unless I'm missing something).

Okay, on the the listening. The racial entry for Enhanced Senses states a +2 to Listen checks. At the end of the elf description, it states elf rogues and assassins get a +2 to listen. This is just reapeated, for posterity, and the two +2's do not stack. It's just summerizing, I assume?

Elves, like the thief, are practically invisible in natural surroundings. They add their level to the check. Anyone else, like another class or race without this ability, 1) dont add level and 2) can be spotted with a check.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[gideon_thorne]

tex wrote:
Actually, I guess I can't find definitive proof on this in the PHB. Maybe I missed it? Can anyone provide a page reference? If there really is no proof then it's probably up to CK discretion, but that really surprises me.

Been trying to get the Troll dudes to definitively put it in the book for years. Word I get from Steve is that its the way I said. BTB, as it stands, do what suits you.

I do. Which is completely opposite from the 'official' stance.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Lord Dynel]

Please forgive my need to make sure I'm understanding it all properly. I just want to make sure I got it right.
All elves get a +2 to Listen dues to Enhanced Senses. They might not neccessarily be able to add their level to the check, but they all get the +2. Rouges and Assassins not only get the +2, but they can add their level because they have Listen as a class skill.

All elves can move silently in natural surroundings. All elves can (should) therefore add their level to a move silently check in said surroundings. However, elf rogues and assassins can move silently in all surroundings, get to add their level (since move silently is a class skill) and get a +2 racial modifier to the check.

tex wrote:
Do what to his level? I didn't know that word was a verb. O_o

Sorry about that...the "D" and "S" keys are right next to one another.

[Rigon]

The way I understand it and implement it in my games:

-If the character has and ability, wether from race or class; add level.

-If the character does not have the ability; do not add level.

As to the original question of the bonuses stacking, I've always took the listing to be a quick reference to which abilites get what bonuese from which race.

R-
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The Book of the Mind

[tex]

That looks correct to me. Heh, you have to admit it was a particularly funny typo. : P

[Lord Dynel]

tex wrote:
That looks correct to me. Heh, you have to admit it was a particularly funny typo. : P

Yeah, it was. Sad thing is, if you wouldn't have mentioned it, I would have never noticed it. Sometimes I'm a little overconfident of my spelling/typing ability.
Glad to hear I'm understanding it though!

[Jackal]

Lord Dynel wrote:
Please forgive my need to make sure I'm understanding it all properly. I just want to make sure I got it right.
All elves get a +2 to Listen dues to Enhanced Senses. They might not neccessarily be able to add their level to the check, but they all get the +2. Rouges and Assassins not only get the +2, but they can add their level because they have Listen as a class skill.

All elves can move silently in natural surroundings. All elves can (should) therefore add their level to a move silently check in said surroundings. However, elf rogues and assassins can move silently in all surroundings, get to add their level (since move silently is a class skill) and get a +2 racial modifier to the check.

That's it indeed, and no worries on wanting to understand it. The siege engine, even by the book, is very easy once you get the hang of it, but there is a bit of a learning curve. The best thing about it though is its flexibility...it's very hard to break when you make changes.

Oh, and one minor note...on the listen example above; the non-rogue elf would get the +2 but, even if he passed a check which involved listening he would not be able to hear the same sorts of things as would a rogue/assassin. So, an elf rouge not only adds his level, gets a +2 bonus but he can also hear much more.