Anyone secretly porting the better elements of 4e?

[Jackal]

Agreed. And, yeah, if you don't use subdual damage I can see healing surges to a point. It would take some playtesting to know how many per day, how many hit points to allow, etc. But since I haven't played any 4e they may already have that right.

[Go0gleplex]

Okay. Now I know I'm tired. The title of the thread appeared to read

"anyone porting the BEER ELEMENTALS of 4e".

and I don't even drink...
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Barrataria]

Treebore wrote:
Maybe you will like what I did the last couple of years I ran 2E. Combat spells are typically instantaneous. So I defined "combat spells", those spells that damage or restrict a character in some manner, directly or indirectly. So sleep, summoning monsters, fireball, lightning bolt, hold person, charms, etc... or are cast fast (IE the CT given in the book), they are "combat spells".

So I allowed non combat spells to be cast outside of combat an unlimited amount of times, as "rituals". They become a "ritual" rather than a combat spell. What distinguishes them? Ritual spell versions take a minimum of 1 minute per spell level to cast. Spells that had longer than a 1 minute casting time in 2E had their casting time tripled to become a "ritual".

The "logic" behind this was spells cast in combat were cast so quickly it used the stored energy in your mind/body. By ritually casting certain spells they do it slowly enough to pull the needed energy from around them, and not lose it from "memory".

Resurrecting old thread...

I started looking through this thread for anyone commenting on the "eldritch blast" or whatever it is called, sort of a magical dart that can be used without limit. I'm curious if anyone has done something like this, or if it's caused a problem. I've always wondered about wizards lugging around boxes of lawn darts. Very bulky, not wizardly; this sort of watered-down magic missile makes some sense. But I'm a bit unsure with having no limit at all on it... I'd be inclined to call it "magic dart", limit it to the range and damage of a dart, make them do some kind of roll (either a missile to hit or an INT check).

I've also tinkered with the combat spells in allowing the form of damage to be changed- i.e. ice storm/fire storm (although that name is now problematic), cone of cold/cone of flame, and so on. Treebore's post makes me think it would be interesting to have combat spells that work like monster summoning spells... there's a 1st level spell (i.e. magic missile), a 3rd level spell (i.e. fireball), a 5th level spell (cone of cold), and so on. The spell always has the same range and area of effect, but the player can designate what sort of damage is done: fire, lightning, cold, sonic, etc. So, the caster could cause a cone of cold, or fire, or lightning, or whatever, and it would always be cone-shaped and deliver the same amount of damage. I've always assumed the character would memorize the appropriate form for the intended spell to be cast, but maybe it's harmless to let them memorize "3rd level combat spell" and then make it do whatever they want.

Other than aesthetics, it seems like it's a problem in adventures in cold regions- for example, in an adventure in a polar region there might be monsters that don't fit the locale, so a wizard that has only memorized fire spells might meet a heat-using monster and be SOL. That adventure design element seems to be lost, although obviously other adversaries could be used.

If these things are all addressed in one or 5,000 3E splatbooks, please don't flame me as I don't have a single 3E splatbook from WotC or otherwise. It just seems to be a more elegant way of handling what I've been doing by pencilling in "cone of cold/fire" on spell lists.
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[Treebore]

I allow fireballs to be turned into ice balls, acid balls, etc... with a SIEGE check. TN 12 + 3 + level of spell. Failure means loss of spell. You could even create a critical spell failure chart, or use the Wild MAge charts from 2E, etc...

I also allow things like, say a Wand of Polymorphing, to have its ray split. IE increase number of targets. TN 12 + 3 + level of spell +2 per additional target. So say they wish to target 3 targets, TN 12 +3 +4 (spell level) +4 (two additional targets)= TN 23, and costs 3 charges. Failure means loss of spell and loss of charges.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[Barrataria]

Treebore wrote:
I allow fireballs to be turned into ice balls, acid balls, etc... with a SIEGE check. TN 12 + 3 + level of spell. Failure means loss of spell.

You mean this check is for on-the-fly changing of the spell as it's cast?

Is this just to put a little bit more of a limit on it than just "combat spell"?

Maybe it's still memorized as "3rd level combat spell", and if they fail a siege check when cast it misfires to something else... so your cone of cold against snurre turns to a nice, warm flame bath instead....

I like it but it's a little weird as that would be the only siege-check type thing for wizards.

Have you done anything with the "eldritch blast" idea?

And- thanks for responding
BB
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[Lord Dynel]

Barrataria wrote:
I started looking through this thread for anyone commenting on the "eldritch blast" or whatever it is called, sort of a magical dart that can be used without limit. I'm curious if anyone has done something like this, or if it's caused a problem. I've always wondered about wizards lugging around boxes of lawn darts. Very bulky, not wizardly; this sort of watered-down magic missile makes some sense. But I'm a bit unsure with having no limit at all on it... I'd be inclined to call it "magic dart", limit it to the range and damage of a dart, make them do some kind of roll (either a missile to hit or an INT check).

I can imagine that you could do something like this, Barrataria, without too much trouble. C&C make's it easy with no offensive (damaging) 1st level spell. The only reason I say that is because you don't want to short-change an existing spell. If it were me, I'd do something like:
Arcane Bolt: A wizard can channel arcane energy into a minor attack that he can do so at will. The wizard must make a ranged touch attack versus a target, and if successful does 1-3 points of damage.

Shouldn't be too game breaking.

[Treebore]

Barrataria wrote:
You mean this check is for on-the-fly changing of the spell as it's cast?

Is this just to put a little bit more of a limit on it than just "combat spell"?

Maybe it's still memorized as "3rd level combat spell", and if they fail a siege check when cast it misfires to something else... so your cone of cold against snurre turns to a nice, warm flame bath instead....

I like it but it's a little weird as that would be the only siege-check type thing for wizards.

Have you done anything with the "eldritch blast" idea?

And- thanks for responding
BB

On the fly.

As for using it with the Eldritch Bolt idea I would say its doable with the following conditions. Damage dice are decided upon casting and effect the final CL. So basic formula is:

TN 12 + 3 +HD damage of bolt

Failure still means nothing happens, or crit charts, whatever.

To cast a bolt you must have spells in memory with levels = to the HD of damage the bolt is to do. So if you wish to do a 5HD bolt you must have 5 levels of spells still in memory. They are not actually using those spells, just kind of tapping into them, or you could have them lost if they fail their roll and not lost if they succeed.

You could also limit the damage to their level, or since its a roll, and the higher the damage HD means the higher the chance of failure, they can try any number of HD, or maybe cap it at double their level, whatever you like.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[Treebore]

Lord Dynel wrote:
I can imagine that you could do something like this, Barrataria, without too much trouble. C&C make's it easy with no offensive (damaging) 1st level spell. The only reason I say that is because you don't want to short-change an existing spell. If it were me, I'd do something like:
Arcane Bolt: A wizard can channel arcane energy into a minor attack that he can do so at will. The wizard must make a ranged touch attack versus a target, and if successful does 1-3 points of damage.

Shouldn't be too game breaking.

I think part of it is to have it viable at high levels. So it would need to scale in some manner. So you could do something like 1d4+ 1 point of damage per level, or I believe 3E is like 1d6 per 2 levels.

Then the question is limited or unlimited?

Limited could be what I posted previously (Have to succeed at a roll, maybe lose spell levels from memory), or number of times per day equal to CON, or level, or CON bonus plus level, etc...

Unlimited could be per round, every other round, every 3 rounds, etc...
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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[Treebore]

Treebore wrote:
I like it but it's a little weird as that would be the only siege-check type thing for wizards.

Its not. Spellcasters can try all the SIEGE type check fighters can too. Just with only BtH being added a spellcasters chance of succeeding with a cleave, extra attack, power attacking, whirlwind, etc... are pretty dismal in comparison.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Barrataria]

Treebore wrote:
Its not. Spellcasters can try all the SIEGE type check fighters can too. Just with only BtH being added a spellcasters chance of succeeding with a cleave, extra attack, power attacking, whirlwind, etc... are pretty dismal in comparison.

That's funny, across the three editions of the CnC PHB I have none of them include any "feats" Don't some of those have prerequisite feats, or do you just ignore those too, and make it an extra penalty?

I've fooled with a modified skill list from 3E but no feats (except modified to be class abilities)
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[Barrataria]

Treebore wrote:
TN 12 + 3 +HD damage of bolt

I think I'd be more likely to have a standard number of dice for damage... 1d6/3 levels for 1st level combat spell (or whatever the CnC MM progression is, I forget at the moment); then 1d6 per level for 3rd level spells (like fireball), and then maybe some bell-curve type damage at higher levels, or maybe just bigger dice... 1d8 at 5th level (analogous to flame strike), 1d10 at 7th level, 1d12 at 9th level.

I'd probably leave the "eldritch blast" out of the combat spell concept entirely, as it's just replacing the dart/sling/dagger bit for the wizard. I like the idea of making it an INT siege check. Against the AC of the target? Or maybe adjusted by the target's level/HD/INT modifier? That way a 1st level wizard can't be zapping Gandalf every round.

I also prefer some kind of time limitation... but 1/turn/level is too low I think. 4/hour? I'd still like the wizard to have to do some planning but without imposing too much other bookkeeping (like spell level reduction).

Thanks for your thoughts Robert and Dynel... I haven't pondered CnC tweaks for a while, so it's nice to get the rust out...
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Fantasy Roleplaying Supplements for Basic, Expert, and Advanced games, free for download or print-on-demand and available now! http://www.barrataria.com/

[Treebore]

Barrataria wrote:
That's funny, across the three editions of the CnC PHB I have none of them include any "feats" Don't some of those have prerequisite feats, or do you just ignore those too, and make it an extra penalty?

I've fooled with a modified skill list from 3E but no feats (except modified to be class abilities)

I don't worry about the pre reqs, the TN 12 +3 + spell level, or for fighters, TN 12 + HD of opponent keeps failure kind of high. Then after 25 successes I just give the ability to the character, no more rolls needed.

My players don't always make such rolls either, they typically save them for "tough fights", so it takes a long while for them to get those 25 successes. I have yet to have a player earn one before 8th level, playing from first.
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[DangerDwarf]

I'd love to look at a way of porting the 4e "mutliclassing" system into C&C. Of all the editions, 4e has it the best in that regards in my opinion.

If I do it, I'll probably introduce it through the CZ: Class Options & Skills system for skills.

[papercut]

After finally reading the important bits of the 4e books, I have to say I like the idea of second wind and rituals. Limiting the seconds winds may be necessary (con bonus perhaps), and I like the proposed idea of limiting rituals to spells that have casting times that are longer than instantaneous. Rituals along with the higher spells per day for magic users in C&C really solves some of the issues I have with vancian magic. Second wind also allows for he cleric to be less of a healbot.

I think the ideas in the 4e MM are great, I am gonna have to steal them for C&C.
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Someone send me some dice!

[Joe]

Was there a good element?

I'll have to take others word for it for my days of buying from wotc ended with 4E.
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[Lord Dynel]

Joe wrote:
Was there a good element?

I'll have to take others word for it for my days of buying from wotc ended with 4E.

I think you may be on to something.