Any thoughts on OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord?

[maasenstodt]

Traveller wrote:
Ok, before I get into this, I want to make something abundantly clear. Opinions are not wrong, and it's very antagonistic to declare that someone's opinion is wrong simply because that opinion is objectionable.

When you said "therefore, the clone systems are as I labeled them: a solution in search of a problem," it seemed to me that you were making your negative opinion of Labyrinth Lord's value into a statement of fact. Not only did I see that as plainly incorrect, I felt antagonized, and I responded in kind. I apologize for my antagonism. This thread has not only been quite informative but very civil for a discussion where old, hurt feelings are being shared (thanks to Fiff et al for letting it happen). I don't want to drag it down in the least.

Traveller wrote:
With that said, here we go.

Barrataria has already done a pretty good job of explaining the situation, but I'll add this: never before has either a hard cover or a consolidated printing of B/X D&D been made available. One of Labyrinth Lord's great benefits is that it brings us both. I happy to own two copies of the Rules Cyclopedia (one in NM condition), but given my preference for B/X D&D over BECMI, I'd take my latest LL hard cover over either of them, without hesitation.

Traveller wrote:
Since it is still feasable to create new material for any of those systems without referencing either clone game, the clone games are a solution in search of a problem.

Beyond the (IMO) most important fact that LL is available in ways that B/X D&D simply is not (e.g., consolidated, in .pdf and hard cover formats, etc.), LL also provides a non-infringing trademark to publish under. I think these trademarks have an empowering effect on creative individuals, and that has played a role in the recent surge in new products for this market.

Traveller wrote:
Now that I've got that out of my system, your claim that these systems strengthen gamining communities is based upon what? I've not seen LL's community, so I can't comment on that one, but I haven't seen any strengthening of the gaming community in general, only a fracturing, caused by a rabid few fanboys of the big O who could not comprehend that their game's day is over.

First, as a member of Dan's LL boards, I've gained access to a new, active, and enthusiastic group of gamers, some of whom (like Rhuvein) are ubiquitous and some of whom I've never "met" previously. There's some really good discussion, play-by-post gaming, and encouraging critiques of new products being developed. Well worth checking out!
Second, given the number of OSRIC-based products in particular and (sorry Julian ) old school gaming products (e.g., C&C, LL, etc.) in general that have seen release over the last couple of years, I'd argue that things haven't been this good for this market in a long time. I've never heard anyone suggest that AD&D or Classic D&D will ever sport the number of players that they had in their heyday, but through the availability of the simulacrum titles, the future isn't looking bad IMO.

Third, while there are certainly some who won't touch "the other guys' game(s)," be that C&C, OSRIC, LL, or S&W, the large majority of people I've encountered enjoy all of the creative growth of late regardless of what banner it carries. From OSRIC-based modules to LL-based settings to edition-free fanzines, all are wonderful resources that easily translate between games (and that have made my Castles & Crusades games more enjoyable).

Traveller wrote:
I'm happy that LL is available through Barnes & Noble et al. I don't know if I've made it plain enough, but for both you and Dan, in a nutshell, my beef is with the big O and its fanboys, not LL. If I've said things that run contrary to the intent of keeping the focus on the big O, then I'm sorry.

This hasn't been clear to me and I appreciate your saying as much. In my experience, Dan is a really nice guy and I hate to see him scorned for actions he never took, supported, or in the least way approved of.
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Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once? -- Henry David Thoreau

[maasenstodt]

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
I can see no reason for this thread to continue. Everyone seems to have said their what's on their hearts. Please move on. All that going to happen here is that a bunch of people that I like may end up at each others throats.

You may well be right. Let me say once again, however, that I really appreciate everyone sharing their views and for the powers that be to allow them to do so. This thread has been quite insightful.

In light of all this, I definitely do what I can to foster a positive attitude in old school community that celebrates rather than denigrates our individual preferences. I'll also remain hopeful that those who've said mean-spirited things will recognize and recompense for what they've done, and that a spirit of forgiveness will allow for those whose feelings have been hurt to cast off old grudges.

It's a dream, but one worth working towards.
_________________
Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once? -- Henry David Thoreau

[adaen]

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
ON TOPIC

I can see no reason for this thread to continue. Everyone seems to have said their what's on their hearts. Please move on. All that going to happen here is that a bunch of people that I like may end up at each others throats.

Awww.,...come on. No one has mentioned Hitler or Jesus yet.....
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~Adaen of Bridgewater, www.highadventuregames.com

[Coleston the Cavalier]

adaen wrote:
Awww.,...come on. No one has mentioned Hitler or Jesus yet.....

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John Adams

[Fiffergrund]

Speaking of Godwin's Law...

In Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, the big fundamentalist fascist enclave was run by Sister Miriam Godwinson.

Coincidence? I think not.

I now return you to the thread to nowhere.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[aethelulf22]

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
ON TOPIC

I can see no reason for this thread to continue. Everyone seems to have said their what's on their hearts. Please move on. All that going to happen here is that a bunch of people that I like may end up at each others throats.

Yeah. I totally agree! I think both sides have done a good job trying to explain their reasons/feelings/attitudes to the other (on the whole without having too much of an 'attitude' or being too aggressive) and the other side has equally made it clear they just don't get it...stubborn bunch we all are!

...Me? I just get frustrated reading this now as I am, of course, convinced my reasoning is the most objective, logical and reasonable but at the same time I just can't seem to leave this thread alone...almost wish I'd never asked!

[gideon_thorne]

aethelulf22 wrote:
...Me? I just get frustrated reading this now as I am, of course, convinced my reasoning is the most objective, logical and reasonable but at the same time I just can't seem to leave this thread alone...almost wish I'd never asked!

People watch shows with train wrecks and other disasters for the same reason.
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Peter Bradley

[Dan Proctor]

Traveller wrote:
Furthermore, my assertion that the clone games are a solution in search of a problem is based on very simple logic: the original game materials exist and are still readily available in printed form.

[snip]

In addition, it is actually possible to create AD&D compatible material utilizing the SRD, without needing additional licensing or tool kits, as Pied Piper Publishing announced on their message boards some time ago.

There is some confusion here, which is understandable, because OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord were each created with slightly different goals. This confusion is compounded because the goals behind OSRIC have shifted over time. Let me address your point.

In the case of Labyrinth Lord, there are a few objectives. While you can still buy used books for the old games, these games will never be in print again. You'll never be able to walk into your local hobby shop and pick up a new copy. Many people simply will not bother with out of print games. So one of the goals behind Labyrinth Lord is to get these rules back into print and make the game commercially available. The only way to do this is by using a different brand, for obvious reasons. Now, it is very true that people can create modules or whatever with only the OGL...but who is the audience? In that case, the audience is primarily people who play the old games, and this is a small audience. With Labyrinth Lord I am trying to build a larger audience. A new audience to complement the audience that still plays with the old books.

Now, this goal may fail, I just don't know. It's too early to say. Labyrinth Lord will be available through distributors at the first of October, and this is the first time a "clone" game (not counting C&C) will be commercially available. So we'll have to see whether I can build an audience (with the help of others). In a nutshell, I don't think it is enough to simply publish supplements, if the goal is to increase the number of players of old systems. You absolutely need a core rules book in print. So that is why I went to the trouble to put labyrinth Lord together. I don't see it as a solution in search of a problem, because I see the "problem" as the need to expand the audience of "old school" games. The solution is to get old school games in print, and promote them.

Anyway, I just wanted to explain my motivation.

[Treebore]

Dan Proctor wrote:
There is some confusion here, which is understandable, because OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord were each created with slightly different goals. This confusion is compounded because the goals behind OSRIC have shifted over time. Let me address your point.

In the case of Labyrinth Lord, there are a few objectives. While you can still buy used books for the old games, these games will never be in print again. You'll never be able to walk into your local hobby shop and pick up a new copy. Many people simply will not bother with out of print games. So one of the goals behind Labyrinth Lord is to get these rules back into print and make the game commercially available. The only way to do this is by using a different brand, for obvious reasons. Now, it is very true that people can create modules or whatever with only the OGL...but who is the audience? In that case, the audience is primarily people who play the old games, and this is a small audience. With Labyrinth Lord I am trying to build a larger audience. A new audience to complement the audience that still plays with the old books.

Now, this goal may fail, I just don't know. It's too early to say. Labyrinth Lord will be available through distributors at the first of October, and this is the first time a "clone" game (not counting C&C) will be commercially available. So we'll have to see whether I can build an audience (with the help of others). In a nutshell, I don't think it is enough to simply publish supplements, if the goal is to increase the number of players of old systems. You absolutely need a core rules book in print. So that is why I went to the trouble to put labyrinth Lord together. I don't see it as a solution in search of a problem, because I see the "problem" as the need to expand the audience of "old school" games. The solution is to get old school games in print, and promote them.

Anyway, I just wanted to explain my motivation.

I would say your reasoning is sound. Its the exact same reason Paizo is creating Pathfinder.
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[Darius]

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
Careful - I'm the one who preaches for a living.

You might want to be more specific here. Are you preaching about the Aryan brotherhood or a carpenter? Don't want people to attribute to you the wrong ideals.

[Coleston the Cavalier]

Darius wrote:
You might want to be more specific here. Are you preaching about the Aryan brotherhood or a carpenter? Don't want people to attribute to you the wrong ideals.

Oh yeah. I didn't realize that adaen was referring to Godwin's Law until Fiff mentioned it and I googled it. Maybe I should edit that post.
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John Adams