Conceptualising Hit Points

[tex]

Matthew wrote:
If Cure Light Wounds healed a percentage number of Hit Points . . .

Careful. That way lies madness.

[Matthew]

Heh, heh. I certainly do not expect to see such a concept in my own games.
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It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

[Fiffergrund]

I'm not sure I understand why my explanation overcomplicates things. It has one component of HP - physical damage. The variance in how that damage affects a character is a function of the character's class and level, through HD and HP totals.

In short, if you're trained to fight, you can take more punishment and/or mitigate it better. The more trained you are, the better you get at this.

That's not complicated. All of the more nebulous components of HP being tossed around seem more complicated, to me. Trying to explain why curing wounds can be metaphorical (or metaphysical!) seems hellaciously more complicated than simply saying that healing closes cuts and heals bruises.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[Matthew]

Sorry, let me be clearer. Directly relating Hit Points to Physical Damage (especially in a proportional manner) complicates things for me. The reason is that it introduces a concept that I don't need and occasionally find difficult to explain. I find it less complicated for Hit Points to represent whatever seems appropriate at the time. Obviously, in this context, the complications are subjective, since (from what I understand) you find it more complicated to treat Hit Points in this nebulous manner, and find them easier to rationalise or explain as a direct and proportional representation of physical damage.

I presume, of course, that you wouldn't pay any attention to Hit Points during an execution [i.e. you wouldn't roll damage from an executioner's axe and deduct hit points from the character being executed].
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It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

[Fiffergrund]

Matthew wrote:
Sorry, let me be clearer. Directly relating Hit Points to Physical Damage (especially in a proportional manner) complicates things for me. The reason is that it introduces a concept that I don't need and occasionally find difficult to explain. I find it less complicated for Hit Points to represent whatever seems appropriate at the time. Obviously, in this context, the complications are subjective, since (from what I understand) you find it more complicated to treat Hit Points in this nebulous manner, and find them easier to rationalise or explain as a direct and proportional representation of physical damage.

I presume, of course, that you wouldn't pay any attention to Hit Points during an execution [i.e. you wouldn't roll damage from an executioner's axe and deduct hit points from the character being executed].

Ok, that helps clarify where you're coming from.

And no, I certainly would not pay attention to HP in that case. I'm a strong believer in using common sense. That section in the C&C PHB on "Using Attribute Checks in Your Game" was one of my humble contributions. It's laced with common sense. Fingers of the Forsaken Hand had a "death pit" before Steve made me change it.
So I get where you're coming from. It's all on where the emphasis is placed. I have less difficulty dealing with some of the logical flaws in treating HP as physical, and you have less difficulty keeping it open ended.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[Jackal]

Hehe...Fiff's system is exactly how I've done things for the past 23 years. At first I thought we'd differ since it sounded like more hit points only represented more skill at getting the heck out of dodge. But, like you, I also see increased hit points (for both PCs and monsters) to be, in part, an ability to withstand more physical damage for whatever reason (experience, various creatures reasons, etc).

As for the cure light wounds debate, that's why increased hit points also represents the ability to take more damage (as well as a greater ability to mitigate hit point loss). When a 5th level fighter falls he has, indeed, taken more damage (and mitigated more) than his 1st level brother. In that light, more spells to cure make sense.

And things like energy drain just have a physical component as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I can't imagine something that drains the life energy out of you not causing some kind of physical damage.

But, as I said before (and many others have also mentioned) it doesn't much matter what a hit point represents...other than that's when you fall. Everything else is a matter of style and not all that important outside a given game.

[Matthew]

Jackal wrote:
As for the cure light wounds debate, that's why increased hit points also represents the ability to take more damage (as well as a greater ability to mitigate hit point loss). When a 5th level fighter falls he has, indeed, taken more damage (and mitigated more) than his 1st level brother. In that light, more spells to cure make sense.

If you are defining a 5th Level Fighter as someone who can literally survive wounds a 1st Level Fighter cannot, then it makes sense in that context. I find that idea very disagreeable, but to each his own.

Jackal wrote:
And things like energy drain just have a physical component as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I can't imagine something that drains the life energy out of you not causing some kind of physical damage.

Well, if cure light wounds could cure hit points lost from an energy drain, I might agree.

Jackal wrote:
But, as I said before (and many others have also mentioned) it doesn't much matter what a hit point represents...other than that's when you fall. Everything else is a matter of style and not all that important outside a given game.

Interesting to talk about, though.
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It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

[SaintNiddle]

Matthew wrote:
I presume, of course, that you wouldn't pay any attention to Hit Points during an execution [i.e. you wouldn't roll damage from an executioner's axe and deduct hit points from the character being executed].

Just to play devil's advocate..lol.....

There have been many documented times where an executioner took several swings before finally succeeding in his task.

[Matthew]

SaintNiddle wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate..lol.....

There have been many documented times where an executioner took several swings before finally succeeding in his task.

Indeed, but does that need to be represented by a random die roll and reduction of hit points or is it something better narratively resolved? Preference, I reckon, which is why I asked.
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It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

[SaintNiddle]

Haha..don't get me wrong. I totally agree with you. I'm all about story taking precedence over dice and rules. I just felt like tossing that out there.

If I wanted rules over story, I wouldn't be playing C&C best leave that to WotC.

[Jackal]

Matthew wrote:
If you are defining a 5th Level Fighter as someone who can literally survive wounds a 1st Level Fighter cannot, then it makes sense in that context. I find that idea very disagreeable, but to each his own.

To a degree, yes I do. I don't carry this to the silly extreme of being able to take more than one blade through the heart, etc. Once again, it's all about narrative. The 5th level fighter, by virtue of having been knocked around many times already, can stand up to more physical punishment than his 1st level brother. Now, I see this as accounting for only a small increase in hit points. The rest is, as Fiff said, learning to better mitigate the damage he takes.

Matthew wrote:
Well, if cure light wounds could cure hit points lost from an energy drain, I might agree.

Sorry, I should have been more clear on this one. I have no problem with extreme damage of a supernatural origin actually draining the life energy from you, causing you to be less than you were. So going along with the above, you can now take less damage as you've lost something of yourself (experience, knowledge, etc). So, in essence, you've lost part of your physical self right along with your experience points (the ability to take a harder hit and the experience needed to mitigate more damage). As something that causes a "wound" of this type would be powerful magic indeed, you simply need more powerful magic than simple cure spells to heal it. After all, there is a healing spell that can restore these lost hit points. However you slice it, level drain is always going to throw sand into the gears of your mind when trying to rationalize it anyway.

Matthew wrote:
Interesting to talk about, though.

Indeed it is.

[ryguysolis]

Fiffergrund wrote:
I suppose with my approach at least it's curing "wounds" and not "bad luck" or "muscle soreness."

I don't see a problem here. If I had described the hit points as muscle soreness then of course a cure light wounds would help heal that.

And though I've never described hit point loss as a loss of luck, I have let it represent being put in a disadvantageous position in combat. A Cure Light Wounds spell in that situation would restore to the character a sense of calm and well being. After all, he was just in a bad spot, and was about to get a face to face with his deity, he is likely shaken up, nervous, and mentally drained.

Another way to think about it is this: if a person were in a car accident, but had their seat belt on and received no injury, wouldn't they still be a wreak physically, mentally, and emotionally. Luckily, in C&C, a cure light wounds can wipe all that away.

[maasenstodt]

SaintNiddle wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate..lol.....

There have been many documented times where an executioner took several swings before finally succeeding in his task.

Were this situation to come up in one of my games, it would call for a saving throw/attribute check. A classic "save or die" situation.
To the broader topic, after using years of using an approach to HP similar to Fiff's, I've come to appreciate the more abstract view that older editions of the game seemed to emphasize. In fact, I'm currently working on a refined implementation of Robert Fisher's injury table to use in my next C&C game. Good stuff!
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[Matthew]

Jackal wrote:
Sorry, I should have been more clear on this one. I have no problem with extreme damage of a supernatural origin actually draining the life energy from you, causing you to be less than you were. So going along with the above, you can now take less damage as you've lost something of yourself (experience, knowledge, etc). So, in essence, you've lost part of your physical self right along with your experience points (the ability to take a harder hit and the experience needed to mitigate more damage). As something that causes a "wound" of this type would be powerful magic indeed, you simply need more powerful magic than simple cure spells to heal it. After all, there is a healing spell that can restore these lost hit points. However you slice it, level drain is always going to throw sand into the gears of your mind when trying to rationalize it anyway.

That doesn't sound physical to me, in fact it sounds distinctly metaphysical.

maasenstodt wrote:
Were this situation to come up in one of my games, it would call for a saving throw/attribute check. A classic "save or die" situation.

Ha, ha.

maasenstodt wrote:
To the broader topic, after using years of using an approach to HP similar to Fiff's, I've come to appreciate the more abstract view that older editions of the game seemed to emphasize. In fact, I'm currently working on a refined implementation of Robert Fisher's injury table to use in my next C&C game. Good stuff!

Yeah, that is a fun table, and a nice alternative to the "Hovering on Death's Door" or "-10" rule.
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It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

[Mike Frank]

O.K. So taking Fiff's example of the 5th level fighter taking 5 vs. the 1st level fighter taking 5.

On the 5th level fighter it turns out to be a minor cut and on the poor 1st level fighter it's a major wound.

Now, both characters survive the encounter, go home and rest for 5 days.

Forget about magical healing for a minute and consider regaining 1hp per day.

That first level fighter sure can't take a hit, but he sure can heal fast!

I prefer an abstraction that relates the the character's "nerve." Or his will to fight, his confidence in his abilities. Understand this is not to be confused with fatigue. Now, the 1st level fighter's nerve is badly shaken on the day of the fight. The 5th leveler is looking over his shoulder slightly more often, but he's o.k. Over the next 5 days, he doesn't think too much of the event and eventually heals. The first level guy has the combat replaying in his head constantly for the first few days working to build his nerve back up. This also helps to explain the greater relative experience gained by the first level fighter as he dwells on the combat for a greater time.

If divine healing is used, then it is the power of a god restoring the righteous by infusing confidence and well being to the character.

[Name Level]

I know I'm joining the convo late, but here are my two cents:

Basically, I see increasing hp as a ticket to cooler encounters. A dragon's claw might do more damage than an orc's mace, but a more experienced character is better able to avoid a direct hit. Thus, characters of all experience levels are of roughly the same "toughness," but the ones who have grown more skilled at rolling with punches can take on more skilled enemies.

Thus, no need for an alternate system of hp. As for Cure spells, we can just assume that the PC has built an immunity or something like that. Plus, Cure spells from higher level party co-members tend to have proportionately greater effects anyway. Also, they can afford more low-level slots to multiple preparations.

[Matthew]

Name Level wrote:
As for Cure spells, we can just assume that the PC has built an immunity or something like that.

I don't think I could swallow that! That's the beauty of hit points, though, they are conceptually forgiving.

Anyway, one way to combat the hit point recovery issue that Mike refers to is to do as D20/3e does and allow for X/level recovery of hit points. Still doesn't solve the magical healing discrepancy, but should solve the natural healing issues.
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It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

[Philotomy Jurament]

Matthew wrote:
Anyway, one way to combat the hit point recovery issue that Mike refers to is to do as D20/3e does and allow for X/level recovery of hit points. Still doesn't solve the magical healing discrepancy, but should solve the natural healing issues.

I guess you could apply the same concept to healing spells. That is, a CLW might heal Xd8 hit points, where X is the level of the PC being healed. That kinda makes the higher level healing spells less useful, though. Maybe 1d8+X would work better.
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Lost City Campaign Log

[Matthew]

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
I guess you could apply the same concept to healing spells. That is, a CLW might heal Xd8 hit points, where X is the level of the PC being healed. That kinda makes the higher level healing spells less useful, though. Maybe 1d8+X would work better.

To follow the "hit points as health" paradigm, and still preserve the potency of higher level healing spells, I suspect we would have to reduce the effectiveness of a cure light wounds (which is very reasonable, since 1d8 hit points is hardly "light" if hit points are a direct measurement of health).

I suppose the most straightforward way to do it would be...

Level 1 Cure: 2 hp/level

Level 2 Cure: 3 hp/level

Level 3 Cure: 4 hp/level

Level 4 Cure: 5 hp/level

Level 5 Cure: 6 hp/level

Level 6 Cure: 7 hp/level

Alternatively, percentages of total hit points would be the way to go:

Level 1 Cure: 20%

Level 2 Cure: 30%

Level 3 Cure: 40%

Level 4 Cure: 50%

Level 5 Cure: 60%

Level 6 Cure: 70%

...or something like that.

Personally, though, I am much happier not thinking of hit points as a direct representation of health.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)