4e and C&C

GreyLord · Post by **GreyLord** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:55 pm

C&C is a great way for us to have an old school type of play whilst integrating facets of 3e and 3.5, as well as if desired AD&D and BECM D&D.

However, 4e looks to be a tad tougher. The biggest diffculty is HP.

We currently are doing a Dragonlance C&C campaign, much of it since when we first tried Keep on the Shadowfell we were not impressed. However, we were all convinced to give up ONE valuable evening for a second go around.

It won me over. Except for the group with the Dragonlance stuff, I think I'm packing away my 3e stuff for now and officially switching to 4e.

However, if/when we switch to a more 4e influenced C&C campaign, we looked to see how difficult it could be.

The biggest problems we saw were the conversions with HP. Everything else flows pretty nicely, especially since 4e uses a system somewhat similar to the Siege Mechanic now.

With HP and healing surges, however, I had the following ideas to propose to the DM when we decide to do the switch.

HP, for a 1st level character is dependant on what HD they use.

They add whatever the result of that to their Constitution score.

d12 = 18+ CONS score

d10=15+ CON score

D8 = 12+ CON score

D6 = 12+ CON score

D4 = 10+ CON score

HP per level would be

D12 = 7 HP

D10 = 6 HP

d8 = 5 HP

d6 = 5HP

D4 = 4 HP

Healing surges are much harder to figure out the pattern.

the Lowest is 6 + CON mod surges a day. So when in doubt go with that.

Certain classes are listed in the book already, I imagine it may have to do with what roles they play.

To hit and AC seem to go easily enough together. Just ignore special powers from most monsters and combat should be even. However, Wizards from C&C may overpower spellcasting monsters from the 4e MM since much of thier magic is composed of damage spells and not much else in the way of imagination and creativity, hence a creative C&C illusionist or wizard will probably have the upperhand. That's one downfall of us switching to 4e, however it should be an easier switch with the use of C&C and smooth really well.

A C&C combo of 4e looks to actually run nicely together, still putting together ideas on it however.

Your ideas?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:15 pm

I think your making the proverbial "Mountain out of a Mole Hill". Just determine HP the good old C&C way and totally ignore how 4e does it. Its what I did/do with 3E as well.
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GreyLord · Post by **GreyLord** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:29 pm

That could be, but the monsters are stacked in such a way, that if you use a 4e module, your characters are going to be outmatched at first level. It will take up to fourth or fifth before they really stand a chance in a 4e module, which is where hp comes in.

The monsters (unless minions) designed to be fought at first level have 20 to 30 hp.

Galadrin · Post by **Galadrin** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:10 pm

What about 4e won you over? Examining that carefully will let you pick any features you really liked and add them to whatever game you play (C&C or otherwise).

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:11 pm

GreyLord wrote:
That could be, but the monsters are stacked in such a way, that if you use a 4e module, your characters are going to be outmatched at first level. It will take up to fourth or fifth before they really stand a chance in a 4e module, which is where hp comes in.

The monsters (unless minions) designed to be fought at first level have 20 to 30 hp.

Do the monster HP the same way you would for C&C as well. Goblins, kobolds, etc... have 1 HD=1-8HP. Simple. The trick is "do what makes it work". The rules are suggestions, if they aren't working for you change it to where they do work for you.

So if the PC's have 4 to 12 HP, the monsters should have the same, or less when they are numerous. Their AC should be substantially lower than the party AC as well. Especially when they are numerous.

So say you have a party with a Fighter, Ranger, Cleric, and mage. You want them to be likely to survive a fight versus 20 goblins at first level. Well, hopefully they are later on in the first level range and have gotten gold, or better armor, and the party AC (Full chain suits, shields, maybe plate mail) is in the 17 to 19 range. Plus the mage will hopefully have their Armor spell going for an AC 16 base, and/or is able to stay back at range.

The Goblins should all have 4 to 6 HP and should only be in leather for an AC 11 (maybe 12), and all be wielding daggers or short swords (to make the PC's HP go a little further).

So I don't let the book tell me how to build the encounter, I build it based on what I think needs to be done to make the encounter survivable by the PC's.

Bad rolls by the PC's and good rolls by the goblins can still turn this into a TPK, but thats part of the game. Risk.
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GreyLord · Post by **GreyLord** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:41 pm

Galadrin wrote:
What about 4e won you over? Examining that carefully will let you pick any features you really liked and add them to whatever game you play (C&C or otherwise).

Big thing that converted me. I decided to try a Multi-classed Half Elf. Blew me away. Love the new multi-classing rules. I know many dislike them, but it presented a much more balanced way for MC than 3e. It's how you have your main class, but get the flavor for another class via multiclassing.

We'll probably not have feats, but there may be some things we transfer over for the Multiclassing of 4e into the C&C game.

I'm not certain what it was that won the others over from a C&C 3e integrated game into thinking it could be fun to run a C&C 4e integrated game.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:50 pm

I haven't integrated anything other than 2 monsters from 4E. However, if I think its a good rule, I'll use it. Thats one of the things I love about C&C, and just because its 4E isn't going to keep me from stealing anything I consider to be cool.

I just haven't seen anything cool that will actually add anything to my C&C games yet. That I think is cool, anyways.
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:32 am

I really like the idea of at will, encounter and per day powers but I dislike the way that 4e has taken most of the utility out of being a mage. They have, on the other hand, made him much less useless at low levels. I have been mulling over adopting some of this and thus far have compromised. I added a magic staff to my game and took away spellbooks. The staff is required to cast arcane spells and channel arcane energy from the wizard or illusionist. It retains all the spells they will use and can be used to cast them normally. Alternately, it can fire an arcane bolt of energy for 1d6+1 dmg on a successful ranged touch attack. 3 times/day it can cast prestidigitation as well. This has worked out so far, but I will likely take the concept farther and integrate the philosophy into the arcane casting classes themselves at some point.

zombiehands · Post by **zombiehands** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:00 pm

I am thinking of subbing defenses for saving throws to speed things up. Just reversing prime and none prime ie

defense for a prime is 18+attribute+level, and a non-prime is 12+att+LV

Pdiddy · Post by **Pdiddy** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:51 am

I do like some of the mechanics used with some of the monsters but the scale is so far out of wack with C&C, I don't think there is much I can grab from it.

I also like the idea of second wind - I think it meshes really well with HPs being more than just physical well being and hardiness. Once again the scale is out of wack but maybe use something like one time a day the character gets [insert random number here] HP back.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:45 am

Boycott WOTC is my best advice.

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:00 am

Joe wrote:
Boycott WOTC is my best advice.

Words of wisdom!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:12 pm

Joe wrote:
Boycott WOTC is my best advice.

A bit extreme in my opinion. However I do not see myself buying much beyond their tiles at this point. So I am close to be essentially boycotting, due to lack of interest in their product line.
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Arioch · Post by **Arioch** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:23 pm

well the beauty of C&c is that you can easily add stuff, to it, so you could take the stuff you like from 4th and try to add it. I am not sure how easy it will be to add C&C elements to 4th

Ken
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Mac Golden · Post by **Mac Golden** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:00 pm

How does 4e use a SIEGEngine like mechanic?

(BTW, my impression of 4e is that it is no longer D&D as we know it, but a new game altogther)

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:03 pm

It has to do with how they implemented the skill system -- if you're trained in something, you get a +5 bonus on the check; if you're not, you don't.

Arioch · Post by **Arioch** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:36 pm

it is a different game, very much like talisman, or magic realm then D&D that we know and love.

the equivalent of the siege in 4th is each character has 4 defenses

Ac Armour class

fort fortitude

ref reflex

will will power

when some one does an attack they have to meet or exceed your defense on a d20 plus modifiers

Same with their broad based skill in a skill vs skill challenge, or you have to roll to exceed a give dc decided by th eDm

ken
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:49 pm

I agree that 4th ed is not the same game as previous editions but really, it is a greater departure from OD&D than 1st edition? ot 3.x ed? IMO 4th ed plays alot more similar to OD&D or basic D&D than 3rd ed ever did.

but that is just my humble opinion.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:54 pm

concobar wrote:
I agree that 4th ed is not the same game as previous editions but really, it is a greater departure from OD&D than 1st edition? ot 3.x ed? IMO 4th ed plays alot more similar to OD&D or basic D&D than 3rd ed ever did.

but that is just my humble opinion.

I'm not seeing it. I don't remember having to "mark" anyone, to do "second winds", or to select which of my various powers I am going to use that round, and thats for the fighter types.

I remember it being, " I move to attack! I miss!"
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Arioch · Post by **Arioch** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:50 pm

hmm mark some one to do second wind? second wind is an action that can be performed once per encounter, to use a healing surge during combat. and I didn't; know fighter had powers. The fighter had combat exploits as far as I knew in 4th edition.

Now in basic D&D if you use the RC they had that whole section on various weapon expertise, and mastery and special attacks you could do, depending upon the weapon and what level of weapon mastery, but Don't' think they are similar to me,but to some I am sure to some they could. Then there is second edition which had a whole book devoted to fighters, and various feats and stunts they could perform in combat, but once again to me it doesn't seem the same as 4th edition but YMMV

Ken
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:49 pm

Arioch wrote:
hmm mark some one to do second wind? second wind is an action that can be performed once per encounter, to use a healing surge during combat. and I didn't; know fighter had powers. The fighter had combat exploits as far as I knew in 4th edition.

Now in basic D&D if you use the RC they had that whole section on various weapon expertise, and mastery and special attacks you could do, depending upon the weapon and what level of weapon mastery, but Don't' think they are similar to me,but to some I am sure to some they could. Then there is second edition which had a whole book devoted to fighters, and various feats and stunts they could perform in combat, but once again to me it doesn't seem the same as 4th edition but YMMV

Ken

No, I do know enough about the rules to know how "Marking" works. I even know in the case of my class, the Paladin, I have to engage them by the end of my action in order to keep them marked.

I am just saying that I don't see the comparisons to "Old D&D" etc... Those editions are still much simpler and much more straight forward in what you can and cannot do.

You don't have "Standard Action", "Move Action", "Minor Action", and "Free Actions" in "OD&D", you moved, you attacked.

In 4E you refer to a list of various powers to use, even fighters, and in the case of my Paladin, I have as many as 6 different combat powers I can use (until I use my daily and per encounter powers, then its a choice of 2 powers).

In OD&D I decided what weapon I was going to use, moved if I could/needed to, and rolled my attack, then damage if I hit.

So I simply do not see how 4E plays anything like OD&D, or 1E, or 2E, or even 3E for that matter.
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Arioch · Post by **Arioch** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:59 pm

Like I said the only way I could see the person thinking basic D&D is the RC and weapon mastery

Ken
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:19 pm

Arioch wrote:
Like I said the only way I could see the person thinking basic D&D is the RC and weapon mastery

Ken

I see it getting maybe a step closer, but the "feel" certainly isn't there. Anyways, people's opinions vary for who knows how many reasons. My opinion simply does not see the comparison.
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Arioch · Post by **Arioch** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:26 pm

Oh neither do I. I've just seen other people make the reference between the two. Then again I also am not sure if the people actually played AD&D or Basic D&D that much. being a player from back in the day I don't see any similarity either.

Ken
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:45 pm

Arioch wrote:
Then again I also am not sure if the people actually played AD&D or Basic D&D that much. being a player from back in the day I don't see any similarity either.

Ken

I have to admit I often wonder the same thing.
Then again, my main degree is in Psychology, and I saw a lot of footage of people witnessing the exact same events (usually a crime) and giving very different accounts of the exact same thing.

If I ever sit on a criminal jury trial as a juror, I will seriously doubt the credibility of eyewitness accounts. Unless they perpetrator is someone well known to the witness.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:27 pm

I started with the OD&D purple box and followed the editions up. with that said I feel that 4ed has a lot more in common with OD&D than 3rd did. I am not talking so much about the rules as I am the flavor and feel.

mechanics

I like that all the classes get powers that they can use rather than the very boring "i attack with my sword" I like that a ranger can double shot or that a wizard can cast magic missile as often as he likes.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:45 am

I never started with Holmes D&D (the aforementioned purple box), but started with Basic. However, having spent quite a bit of time with the OD&D rules since I acquired a copy of them three years ago, and having looked through the rules for WotC's newest fantasy RPG, I don't see how WotC's new crud can even compare to OD&D. A game which people to this day, 35 years after first publication, still play.

If you happen to be someone who enjoys computer gaming (Evercrack/World of Warcrack), you'll probably like the computer game on paper that WotC has produced. The biggest difference between WotC's game and OD&D is in the sense of entitlement. d20 Fantasy started the ball rolling by empowering the players, and now this game caters to the player's narcissistic character. The rules "owe" them, and they want it NOW! Healing surges, more powerful characters at first level, and at will powers are merely the easily noticed superficial examples of things that feed the player's sense of entitlement. OD&D made you work at things to be successful, whether it was the referee or the player.

Which game provides the greater sense of accomplishment?
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Pdiddy · Post by **Pdiddy** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:52 am

Easy guys.

The post reads it is closer to OD&D than 3.5 "was"

Not saying that 4e is the restatement of OD&D, BX or anything else from our childhood. Just that it is closer than the last edition was.

And I agree with him. It is closer. The rules are faster and simpler than the last edition and more power is put back into the DM's hands.

Do I prefer it to BX, OD&D, C&C? no way.

But it isn't the anti-christ.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:01 pm

Pdiddy wrote:
But it isn't the anti-christ.

Camazotz · Post by **Camazotz** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:24 pm

I started in 1980 with the Erol Otus box sets, then quickly graduated to AD&D.....my entire old school group ported over to 4E's concepts pretty easily; my take on it is that mechanically 4E is not at all like older editions, necessarily, but in terms of concept and execution, it is much, much closer to them. Someof my players would pick up a 3.5 book and just look confused, like it was a Chinese language edition; these same guys grasped 4E very quickly, and found that it was rather easy to grasp and play. I think that's where the similarities come from......the new edition captures a bit of what the old editions had in terms of accessibility and fun.

Hey, on the HPs thing I'd just use this formula:

C&C HD = (4E HP-(monster levelX6))/8(or appropriate die code); round up or down, or add remainder like a bonus to HP

So a 48 hit point level 3 monster would have 3D8+6 HD

Alternatively, just take the level of the creature and use that to determine how many hit dice it has...easy!

Just some ideas, anyway...
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4e and C&C

4e and C&C

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