Sound Burst

[Combat_Kyle]

This first level Cleric spell in the 2nd printing seems a bit powerfull to me. 1d8 AoE damgae no save, save or be stunned for 1 round! Nearly had a TPK with an NPC Evil Cleric the other night. Had to hold back, but damn, that spell is a dousy. I can see it being not as usefull at higher levels as the damage does not go up, but even at hgih levels it could be used to thin out the horde of minions thrown at a party by a high level baddie. Does anyone else have thoughts on this spell?
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[Nelzie]

C&C is more dangerous then D&D is.

Of course, if you wanted to, there is every reason to provide a save when that spell is cast on PCs, NPCs or Monsters.

[Omote]

Are there any rules in C&C about being "stunned." Golly, I guess it's just never come up before, and I can't remember reading anything specific about the effect of being stunned.

IMO (and if they're isn't a rule on this), you just can't do anything in you next turn. A big, ole' nuthin.

.................................................Omote

FPQ
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[Combat_Kyle]

Omote wrote:
Are there any rules in C&C about being "stunned." Golly, I guess it's just never come up before, and I can't remember reading anything specific about the effect of being stunned.

IMO (and if they're isn't a rule on this), you just can't do anything in you next turn. A big, ole' nuthin.

.................................................Omote

FPQ

Thats how I've been using stunn.
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CK the CK
"My goddess touched me at an early age."

-Grikis Valmorgen, Paladin

The beginnings of my homebrew campaign world and info for my play by chat game:
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[moriarty777]

Haven't use it yet... but I'm really tempted to soon!

Seriously, as deadly as it can be... it all comes down to how you're planning encounters and basic tactics...

An organzied kobold group of archers can be equally devastating... and there is nothing stopping the players from doing the same thing to your carefully constucted encounters...

If I were to limit anything, it look into the area of effect only. Perhaps you could consider a save for those with certain helms (making them even more useful in the eyes of the players).

Moriarty the Red
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[The One and All]

It is powerfull yes but as it was said, only at lower level...

IMO, tweaking spells unless they are truly broken should not be done... especially if one base his house rulling on his "judgement". What one thinks makes sense might not be the case for others. Your just openning the door for a lot of arguing around the table.

What a game need is consistency, and if you start using the "Should be", "might be", "could be" for each and every spell out there, the players are going to be confused in the long run...

Especially if you switch Dm from time to time and they don't quite see it the same way you do. It would only resort in more arguing around the table about how it could be, and how it should be done. When that time could be better spent hacking and solving puzzles and quests.

Plus, the spell selection in C&C is quite reduce compare to other system (maybe not 1ed, never played it) and IMO, the players should have access to these "more powerfull" spell, as long as they don't abuse it.

And it doesn't hurt to use it too as a DM for some encounters...

[PeelSeel2]

Combat_Kyle wrote:
This first level Cleric spell in the 2nd printing seems a bit powerfull to me. 1d8 AoE damgae no save, save or be stunned for 1 round! Nearly had a TPK with an NPC Evil Cleric the other night. Had to hold back, but damn, that spell is a dousy. I can see it being not as usefull at higher levels as the damage does not go up, but even at hgih levels it could be used to thin out the horde of minions thrown at a party by a high level baddie. Does anyone else have thoughts on this spell?

Thanks for the idea!! I guess I should read through the spells and see what is actually their! In my Keep on the Borderlands C&C campaign we left off with the party entering 'the masters' lair. It is an evil Clerics domain. Now you have given me something that can really hurt!!
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[serleran]

Are not the rules for stunning under the stunning attack ability of the monk class? I thought they were... if not, that's a problem.

As for the spell, it does not ever become "useless" unlike sleep, as even at high levels, and especially at them, being able to stun is very powerful. However, it affects friends and foe alike... since its an AoE spell. I'm debating whether it should be 2nd level or not.

[Ghul]

serleran wrote:
Are not the rules for stunning under the stunning attack ability of the monk class? I thought they were... if not, that's a problem.

As for the spell, it does not ever become "useless" unlike sleep, as even at high levels, and especially at them, being able to stun is very powerful. However, it affects friends and foe alike... since its an AoE spell. I'm debating whether it should be 2nd level or not.

Official: stunned character unable to act, +2 to hit the stunned opponents.

For sound burst, this lasts 1 round. For the monk's stunning attack, this lasts 1d4 rounds.

--Ghul

[johns]

It all comes down to tactics, I think. If a party is rushing in madly, then they're making a tactical error and they get what they get. C&C doesn't offer many outs for the foolhardy - it expects that just as PCs get better with experience, players have to get better with experience as well - beginning players might end up in a TPK from sound burst, experienced players (assuming they've been paying attention) probably won't.

And even if the entire party was stunned, it doesn't have to turn into a TPK. The evil cleric can simply take the party prisoner, put them in a complex death trap, lecture them on his evil plan to conquer the world, and then leave them to their certain doom. That's what I would do if I was an evil mastermind.

[Combat_Kyle]

serleran wrote:
Are not the rules for stunning under the stunning attack ability of the monk class? I thought they were... if not, that's a problem.

As for the spell, it does not ever become "useless" unlike sleep, as even at high levels, and especially at them, being able to stun is very powerful. However, it affects friends and foe alike... since its an AoE spell. I'm debating whether it should be 2nd level or not.

Exactly, I love how the spell works and would not change its affect, I am considering making it a 2nd lvl spell. I'm not sure if that would unbalance the game or not.
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CK the CK
"My goddess touched me at an early age."

-Grikis Valmorgen, Paladin

The beginnings of my homebrew campaign world and info for my play by chat game:
http://kbdekker.googlepages.com/home

[miller6]

Hey, if 1st level wizards can have a sleep spell...then in my opinion, sound burst shouldn't be in question. Personally, I love the spell.

Brian Miller
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[johns]

Clerics don't get a whole slew of offensive spells in C&C - which is as it should be, since offense isn't their role - but they do need a little firepower for those occaisions when the party is in serious trouble. I think soundburst is excellent for those situations.

[serleran]

Besides, when you encounter a prysmal eye, and your weapons and magics aren't hurting it... what else can you do but sling a few sound bursts and run the heck away!

[miller6]

serleran wrote:
Besides, when you encounter a prysmal eye, and your weapons and magics aren't hurting it... what else can you do but sling a few sound bursts and run the heck away!

Just my opinion, but I gotta disagree on that one.

The effects of the sound are magical in nature as a thunderclap doesn't normally cause damage or stun people, hence in your example, I'd rule that a soundburst has no more effect on the prismal eye than any other spells.

Brian Miller
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[Philotomy Jurament]

I like the idea of the Sound Burst spell, but I think it's too powerful for a 1st level cleric spell. Actually, I'm not sure that I like it as a cleric spell at all.

In general, I'm finding the C&C cleric is a bit too powerful for my taste. I think C&C has balanced that out in other ways (e.g. XP progression), so it's not really a game-breaker, but just an issue of taste.
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[Alcahaelas]

I don't mind the Cleric having a solid offensive 1st level spell like Sound Burst. After all, if they use their spell slots to cast it then that's some healing that's not being used--and without healing many parties wind up riding a very thin line between party wipe and survival.

Not a lot of players like playing Clerics. Giving them a bit of extra incentive helps overall.
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gideon_thorne wrote:
There are lots of explanations that a clever CK can use to bullshit any roll.

[Omote]

This is one reason that I'm looking forward to Bowbe's spell document for the Haunted Highlands setting. In a brief description he gave some months ago, Bowbe mentioned lots of new spells. While it would be easy enough to convert spells from v3.5, I'd rather see official C&C versions... especially the Haunted Highland spells.

-O
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[maximus]

Ok guys, I don't know the protocol for reviving an old thread vs starting a new one, but since this has the subject matter I need, I'll go with this. Feel free to pile on...

In today's game, my players came up to a barrier made of stones, wood, rotten foodstuffs, etc. Rather than just start putting their hands in the pungent material (wisely avoiding the Rot Grubs within...) one of the Clerics suggested casting a Sound Burst on the wall. Has anyone run into this before? I thought it was an inventive suggestion, but ultimately decided that the spell was not effective for this. Thoughts anyone?

[Go0gleplex]

Well..a couple ways to look at this IMO. If the barrier was just loosely stacked material then the sound burst might...MIGHT...dislodge some of it. Not enough to clear it in one go though. The hidden beasties within might suffer half damage as well possibly. If the barrier was carefully stacked, the rotten organics within old boxes, then I'd agree that sound burst would do absolutely nothing to it, though again, the beasties could possibly take some damage. I see sound burst damage as from concussive force not necessarily the sonic wavelengths. I mean, if sound can be used to create a tractor beam effect of sorts or if it hits the right frequency that the vibrations can shatter some materials it isn't that much of a leap in logic to allow for some damage in certain circumstances.

[Captain_K]

As noted, per the PH, stun only gives others a +2 to hit the stunned person while they're stunned. Which is for but one round. From the segment they are hit by the stun until that same segment the next round. Likely they will lose just one chance to "attack" (IMHO), but they will still be defending themselves, just not as well since they're "stunned" and everyone gets a PH noted +2 to hit them. So unless they get nailed with stun after stun after stun... and fail their save every time...

It is an area affect spell for 20 foot diameter, just a 10' radii, so unless the bad guys are in tight formation its not a very big area. They get a save, granted a WIS save, vs stun. So likely most capable creatures will make that about 50/50 after 8 HD or much sooner if they have a M save. So most low level WILL be stunned for one round.

Here is the spell from the PH:
SOUND BURST, Level 1 cleric
CT 1 R 50 ft. D n/a SV see below SR yes Comp V, S, DF
The caster evokes a thunderclap of sound, emanating from any point up to 50 feet away and in a 20 foot diameter circle. Any
creature within the area of effect takes 1d8 damage and must make a successful wisdom saving throw to avoid being stunned
for 1 round.

Powerful for a cleric at first level.. I say about damn time (but per the below its not really any worse than others, just slightly different).. the Priest of Thor OWNS this spell. Thor and his thunder clap are legend! Why not? Feel the wrath of my god... it should be impressive.

Too powerful for first.. let's compare.
1st lvl Cleric Command used with a capable thief is a death sentence, command "die" they fall to the ground totally helpless, thief (or cleric's allcot) steps in and slits the throat or crushes the skull. Picture two clerics on the same round, delay initiative to be in phase, cast command and crush, next round , next guy casts command and the other crushes... if your job is to kill the bad guys and they must make a CHA save?? they are dead, one per round.. not bad... not stunned with a plus 2 to hit them, dead "coup de grace" dead, a blow of (divine) mercy. My Priest of Death - aka Arawan always teams with a skilled fighter who delays phase to be in with the cleric and every round they need to they pull off the "command" and kill, few monsters or characters make the CHA save.
1st lvl Druid, Entangle.,, yeah you got to have shrubbery and vines and trees, but in a 50 diameter, over twice the sound burst at a safe range of 450 feet (not 50) they are sitting ducks for LONG duration and way more penalties than the -2 of stun... plus its active IF you make your DEX save next round you got to do it again or flee the area the round you're not entangled.
1st lvl mage - sleep.. already noted and just as nasty in the right time..
1st lvl Illusionist - our all time fave Color Spray...

So, IMHO sound burst is just fine... if you don't like your cleric able to kick ass, then make sure their holy symbol is a peace sign and they only take cure spells.. I'm guessing their religion (and their god) will not last long... well, in our "its all about killing" world... but if you're going to fiddle with sound burst, you got a lot more spells to fiddle with.. because they're worse or just as bad.

[Captain_K]

Nice try, on the spell, A for creativity, C- for "physics of sound", would not knock much over, but raise the dust and stun and KILL every rot grub, go for it. d8 damage kills every rot grub... but time to get the dirty work done with your hands... but the idea to use sound burst as a "insecticide" is awesome. Insect swarm, toast! 20' diameter insta-kill for anything with 1 h.p. without lighting everything on fire!

[maximus]

Thanks guys. I thought it might be a stretch. Still a great spell though.

Have to agree on Color Spray; probably my favorite low level spell.

[Treebore]

The general Stunned condition does NOT incapacitate you. It ONLY gives opponents the +2 to hit for one round. ONLY the Monk can stun to incapacitate. The rules do not give such a power to Stun anywhere else, only for the Monk. Being Stunned in all other instances only gives a +2 to hit the Stunned target.

Don't want to agree? Then show me where the books say, anywhere, that the Stunned condition does anything other than make you easier to be hit. The general Stun only means they are stupified, dazed, disoriented, but not so badly as to meet the conditions for being +5 to hit. Anyone who has played football, wrestled, boxed, practiced Martial Arts, or fought in real fist fights knows from personal experience what it means to be stunned, still conscious, still kind of aware of what is going on, but not having full control.

If it fully incapacitated you then at least the +5 would apply, if your unconscious, then the +10 would apply. Neither one does, which is why it is only +2.

[Captain_K]

Other than asking "what does stun really mean".. I don't see anything in here thinks or is stating its more than +2 to be hit while stunned for one round... the thought or question I read, and there is a lot here fast, is that sound burst might be too powerful for a 1st lvl cleric... I'm in the camp, nope, its just fine.

[Treebore]

Its pretty weak if you have it do only as the rules say, but if you have it actually incapacitate, then its more on par with the Wizards Sleep spell.

[T1Hound]

I've already allowed a fighter cleric of Thor to channel the sound burst through his hammer and knock a crumbling part of stone and mud trail away from a footpath thus making it more difficult to be followed. I thought it was a decent play, gave him a chance of success, and he made it. It did alert every orc in the area.

The part I enjoy is it has a bit of fantasy to it. It didn't break the game but added some flare.

[Go0gleplex]

I've already allowed a fighter cleric of Thor to channel the sound burst through his hammer and knock a crumbling part of stone and mud trail away from a footpath thus making it more difficult to be followed. I thought it was a decent play, gave him a chance of success, and he made it. It did alert every orc in the area.

The part I enjoy is it has a bit of fantasy to it. It didn't break the game but added some flare.

Nicely played.

[miller6]

Sound Burst is OP. It's more powerful than sleep spell which is the OP 1st level spell for wizards. Very cool spell for a priest though. Don't be caught without it!

[ssfsx17]

In 3rd edition, Sound Burst was a 2nd-level spell, so clerics had to be at least experience level 3 to cast it.

It made a lot more sense in that context.