Alas and Argh

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:49 pm

A bunch of my friends are getting together to game this weekend, including one that I haven't seen in about a year.

But they're playing 4e.

Argh.

Alas.

They're putting the screws on me to join in. I don't know that I can bring myself to play 4e. I looked over the 4e PHB, to see if my first impression stood, and none of the classes sound appealing to play, just appalling.

We'll see if I cave...

Telhawk · Post by **Telhawk** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:56 pm

Quote:
We'll see if I cave...

I would. If for no other reason than having a genuine, informed basis of evidence on which to develop an opinion, I'd give it the shot. If it turns out to be The Omen in RPG form...well, you'll have lost an evening of your life but have the attendent wisdom to make up for it. And if it turns out to have been a neutral or even half-decent experience, you'll be able to come back and let us know about the benefits and drawbacks as well.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:56 pm

I am playing 4E, I don't like the system, but I am having a good time playing. So play with your friends. You'll still laugh and have fun.
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ThrorII · Post by **ThrorII** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:29 pm

Don't drink the Kool-aid!!!!!

If the rest of your friends were going to play 'Lets jump off the bridge', you wouldn't join them.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:36 pm

I'm with Thror...boycott WOTC!

But there is no reason why you cannot visit with old friends.

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:54 pm

Whether you play or not, be sure to bring a copy of your C&C PH with you... to show them how life should be...

-Fizz

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:55 pm

I'm with Treebore... go and play it. You'll have fun because your friends are there. Who knows... maybe you can start working them towards C&C...
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:57 pm

I'd say -- why are you pressuring me, man? Aren't we friends? Friends don't do this to friends...

Heh.

Naw, if its with someone I haven't seen in a long time, I'd go -- RPGing is a social thing, system unimportant.

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:05 pm

serleran wrote:
Naw, if its with someone I haven't seen in a long time, I'd go -- RPGing is a social thing, system unimportant.

Agreed.

R-
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dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:24 pm

Go and have fun. Play an infernal pact tiefling warlock. Act all dark, moody, and alternative. Mwu-ah-ha-ha!
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:19 am

ThrorII wrote:
Don't drink the Kool-aid!!!!!

I love Kool-Aid. Especially green Kool-Aid, it is like liquid heaven.

Mmmmmmmmm.

Telhawk · Post by **Telhawk** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:25 am

I agree wholeheartedly with Fizz and Frost - bring a copy of the C&C PH along with you, just in case. I can see it turning into one of those gawdawful talking heads ads that you'd get on late night cable:

(Opening shot: family playing D&D 4e around a table, all wearing '80s Cosby-style attire)
FATHER: (rolls dice; speaks in monotone) And your wizard's spell annihilates the army, leaving nothing but charcoal briquettes in your wake. Contratulations, son - you've saved the kingdom. Again.
SON: BO-RING! Isn't there any other game we could play?
MOTHER: Well, there's always electronic Parcheesi...
DAUGHTER: Give me the steak knife and I'll end it all right now, I swear to God.
SON: Can't you just let us play 3.5 again? I know you almost lost your job because you had to take time off work to make up the monsters' feats and stuff, but I just can't take not being able to power-game! (buries head in arm and sobs brokenly)
FATHER: (reaching over and touching him on shoulder) Son, I swore an oath before almighty God that I would never touch 3.x again. The nights I lost making sure that all the monsters and archvillains had skills and feats that could challenge your characters...(looks with guarded expression at mother; she stares at him with her lips pursed)...well, your mother and I came close to a divorce over it. We're into Dungeons & Dragons 4e now - if we can't be with the game we love, we'll love the game we're with.
SON: (muffled, speaking into arm) My life is meaningless.
MOTHER: Well, I picked something up at the Friendly Local Gaming Store today... (reaches beside chair and picks up copy of Castles & Crusades Player's Handbook)
FATHER, SON & DAUGHTER: What's that?!?
MOTHER: (holding up book) A new book from Troll Lord Games - the acknowledged masters of the pen-and-paper RPG. Castles & Crusades is a blessed escape from the monolithic tyranny of Wizards of the Coast and their stranglehold on the role-player's imagination; now, we have a chance to start playing the games we want - to live in a rules-lite world where we can play to establish characters instead of a page full of stat blocks!
DAUGHTER: I smell Gary Gygax in the house.
FATHER: (threatens Daughter with back of right hand) Quiet, you. (turns to Mother with beautific expression) Sounds great! But how does it work?
MOTHER: No feats. No list of things that you can't do until you get a feat that establishes the ability; no Attacks of Opportunity (entire family convulses briefly, eyes rolling back in heads with foam at corners of mouth). No Improved Initiative as a must-have that you waste a slot on. None of those insanely complicated prestige classes. If you want to try something, you and the Castle Keeper work it out - and if it's possible, you do it!
SON: And that's all?
MOTHER: Yes, son. (Son looks at her with tearful, joyous expression)

(fade out; fade back with family playing Castles & Crusades)
FATHER: And the ogre mage lunges at you, snarling and cursing! (Father makes snarling and cursing sounds; the family laughs, nods and claps)
SON: I love these characters. So flexible...just a simple list of class abilities and straight-forward attacks and defenses...Dad, I've found new purpose in life again.
DAUGHTER: And I've decided to go back to school and dump that worthless chain-smoking drug addict boyfriend of mine. Son of a so-and-so never made any money except by selling D&D plastic figures over the Internet anyway.
MOTHER: (holds Father's forearm) Our marriage is secure. C&C is a natural 20 in the make-up of our lives, dear.
FATHER: (smiling) Well, there are no criticals in C&C, hon...at least not until the Castle Keeper's Guide comes out. (family laughs fondly; father picks up Player's Handbook and looks in camera) And that's what Troll Lord Games' Castles & Crusades has done for our family: Restored hope in a world where fun isn't a four-letter word. (fade to black)

This could be your future, Jyrdan: one copy of C&C and lives are changed forever. Make your decision; and make it well.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:56 am

Heh. Funny stuff Telhawk.

Unexpectedly, I agree with Thror and Joe - While I'd boycott the game, there's no reason not visit with your friends! Maybe you suggest a dinner or a pub (assuming you're old enough) or other type hangout. If you don't want to play, then don't play - your friends should respect that. Explain to them that you'd really rather not play 4e but that you're open to any number of things instead of it.

But if you really must play an rpg...

serleran wrote:
Naw, if its with someone I haven't seen in a long time, I'd go -- RPGing is a social thing, system unimportant.

...then maybe you can suggest C&C!
Ultimately, do what you wish. As long as everyone's in agreement and you all have a good time. That's what it's all about.

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:56 am

Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:
But they're playing 4e.

My sincere condolences...
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Thegreenman · Post by **Thegreenman** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:24 pm

Give them two months to grow tired and bored of 4e. Then "accidentally" send or drop them C&C quickstart rules.

magehammer · Post by **magehammer** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:06 pm

I think you will have fun...not only with your friends but also with the system.

I have DMed five sessions of Keep on the Shadowfell and in many ways it has taken me back to the emotions I had when I first opened the Keep on the Borderlands way back in the Moldvay box.

D&D 4E really is a fun time if you give it a chance.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:38 pm

Yeah, you should give it a play. For some time with your friends if nothing else.

It's not like playing 4e causes genital warts or anything.

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:46 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, you should give it a play. For some time with your friends if nothing else.

It's not like playing 4e causes genital warts or anything.

I heard you go blind and grow hair on the palms of your hands!

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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:38 pm

I say play it. I'm actually looking for a game to get into to see what it's like. It's not like your breaking a holy oath or anything.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:50 pm

Quote:
Yeah, you should give it a play. For some time with your friends if nothing else.

It's not like playing 4e causes genital warts or anything.

Quote:
I say play it. It's not like your breaking a holy oath or anything.

It seems like there's enough voices on the side to play it, so I'll stay on the other side.

I say don't play it. It's not like your friends will disown you if you don't.
Wanting to do something with your friends =/= having to play 4e.

Either way, have fun with your friends!

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:39 pm

Thanks for weighing in, all.

The funny thing is, I lent the guy DM'ing the session the C&C PHB a while ago, long before 4e. He liked it, but didn't love it.

I might as well play the 4e session, unless all the spots have been taken. They are my friends, after all. I imagine that I'll play a Fighter - I couldn't imagine playing a cleric, one of my once favorite classes, and hitting enemies to heal allies.

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:32 pm

And as for closure, I did play. I gotta say, it had been months and months since my C&C group met (at this point, I'm guessing that group can be stamped with a DEFUNCT mark, sad to say), and it was great to get together with friends and game. It had been even longer since I was a plain old player, and that was a most refreshing change of pace.

Now, what did I think of 4e, after actually experiencing it?

Character creation was much faster than I expected. The DM wanted us at 8th level for the one-shot, and that did take longer - but really that was just leveling all at once.

Going completely against type for me, I played an Evil Tiefling Rogue named Akretos Noone. Yep, No One (funny thing is, I acutally no someone with that last name). He was eloquent, cold, arrogant, but loyal to his allies. I through in a bit of Niles/ Frasier style snobbery to him as well.

Other than him:

Gorvath, Dragonborn Fighter

Kilgran, Dwarven Figher

Kon'ai, Elven Ranger

Quinn, Human Paladin,

Epiff, Walfling Warlord

We played for roughly six hours. The non-combat parts went just fine. But in that six hours, we only had two combat encounters. The first was against a band of Orcs, with wolves, a warlord, and two berzerkers. The second was the big one, consisting of a black dragon and a shambling mound.

During the first combat, I spent most of it sneaking around to get at the orc warlord. But the dwarf got to him first, so I had to settle for backstabbing one of the berzerks.

The dragon started off terribly exciting. But then the combat began to drag...on and on. It took two hours to finish this thing off. And toward the end, most of us were out of fancy shamcy powers except for the At-Will's.

As far as action goes, 4e has nothing on C&C - the special powers seemed to take away from the willingness to try daring stunts. I was the only one that really interacted with the environment, ducking behind a sacrificial altar for cover.

That being said, seeing the dwarf and dragonborn crush their enemies, the ranger nail several opponents with his bow, the warlord bolster and devestate on the battlefield, the paladin crit three times in a row with his dragonbane longsword was a thrill. I loved pocketing a bit of treasure from a dying sage, multiple sneak attacks throughout the course of the game, and baiting the paladin.

The DM did a great job keeping track of everything, RP'ing the NPCs and enemies, and describing the general mayhem.

But still, the fights lasted way too long. The DM was the aforementioned out of towner. I may see if I can keep the momentum going and start a C&C game with the same group. Most of us hadn't gamed in some time, so we were all very excited to be doing so again.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:36 pm

Glad you had fun, sir!

Yeah, I've heard battles take a long time. And I've heard, with the new structure of powers, they can be quite boring at times.

But yeah, I second the motion of getting them on a C&C game!

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:40 pm

Sounds like you had fun, that's always a good thing!

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:09 pm

I suspect that some of the group would be quite receptive to C&C. All of us have prior edition experience, and two of them completely skipped 3e.

Lord Dynel wrote:
Glad you had fun, sir!

Yeah, I've heard battles take a long time. And I've heard, with the new structure of powers, they can be quite boring at times.

But yeah, I second the motion of getting them on a C&C game!

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:39 am

I have read on ENworld several people playing it, telling that combats were even longer than in 3e...
Man, I really hate 4e...
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:28 pm

Our group hasn't had that problem. It sure isn't as fast as C&C, but it isn't taking longer than 3e.

magehammer · Post by **magehammer** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:56 pm

Yes, I second what DangerDwarf said. The combats are at the same length / shorter than 3.XE. That is with over half the group still learning as they go. Many have had spare time outside the game to study the rules, but they make due.

One other note, for those interested...the burden for DMing has been greatly minimized from what it was in 3.XE. It is way simpler to put together an adventure in 4E than it was in 3.xE. I have started writing my own adventure to fit in between Shadowfell and Thunderspire (though I may never run it, but that's a tale for another time...) and it has been a breeze.

But as was said somewhere. To me, it doesn't matter what system I am playing as long as I am spending time and having fun with friends, that is what counts. (Unless, of course, I am DMing 3.xE which is no fun for anyone).

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Piperdog · Post by **Piperdog** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:23 am

Tellhawk! LOL I nearly peed myself! That is good stuff. We should film that and throw that on YOUTUBE!

Alas and Argh

Alas and Argh

Re: Alas and Argh