Observation on Castle Zagyg Dual Classing Rules

[johns]

I think theres a flaw in the dual-classing rules from Castle Zagyg. Allow me to illustrate:

Two fighters Fighter A and Fighter B have just reached 5th level. Each has 17,001 XP, 27 hp, and a +5 BtH. After a harrowing fight with a wight, Fighter B gets religion and decides to dual class as a cleric. He now needs to earn 4,502 XP to become a 1st level cleric.

OK so 4,502 XP later, Fighter A is a 5th level fighter with 21,503 XP, 27 hp, and a +5 BtH. Fighter B is a 5th level fighter/1st level cleric with 17,001 fighter XP and 0 cleric XP, 32 hp, and a +5 BtH, etc etc. The problem is beginning to develop for a miniscule investment, Fighter B is now a 6th level character with better saving throws than Fighter A, and slightly more hit points.

So, lets fast forward to Fighter A achieving 6th level. He now has 34,001 XP, 33 hit points, and a +6 BtH. Assuming Fighter B has earned the same number of XP and put them all toward advancing as a cleric, he will be a 5th level fighter/4th level cleric (a 9th level character) with 17,001 fighter XP and 12,498 cleric XP, 45 hp, and a +5 BtH. So, same number of XP earned, but one guy is a 6th level character with 33 hit points, and the other is a 9th level character with 45 hp. Doesnt seem fair, does it?

I think the fix lies in the older edition rules:

1) You dont earn new Hit Dice until your new classs levels exceed your old classs levels. So, when Fighter B hits 6th level as a cleric, he will finally roll 1d8 for some added hit points.

2) Your levels in these classes do not stack; rather, your character level is the highest level you have achieved in all your various classes. So, since Fighter Bs highest class is fighter (5th level), he is considered a 5th level character.

With these fixes, Fighter B seems to lag a character level behind Fighter A, but as compensation he can cast spells and turn undead as a 4th level cleric. This seems more balanced to me.

Any thoughts? Am I interpreting the Castle Zagyg dual-classing rules incorrectly?

[moriarty777]

Multiclassing and Dualclassing are far from perfect.

Your example is good one... and there are similar issues with Multiclassing.

A 5th level fighter needs to have earned about 17,000 xp

That same EPP puts a multiclassed Fighter/Assassin at levels 4/4 or if you rather, an 8th level character.

This 8th level character, who under the revised Multiclass rules (available in that free PDF) take the best to hit bonus of their respective classes, would have the same BtH as the 5th level fighter.

By the time the fighter reached 6th level, the fighter/assassion will have become a 10th level character (5/5) with a BtH higher than that of a 6th level fighter.

Interesting eh?

As far as hitpoints are concerned, I'm less worried. Using the same example above, that 10th level character won't be rolling a hitdice for increases in level anymore... This allows the pure Fighter to catch up and probably surpass the Fighter/Assassin's hitpoints. This was one adjustment for multiclass characters in the revised PDF, beginning multiclass character average their hitpoints which helps.

There have been no shortage of posts on this subject and I'm sure this won't be the last

Moriarty the Red
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[JonusBlackthorn]

Just a few things of note. I was under the impression that the character level was only used to determine when you stopped rolling dice for hit points. I had assumed that you simply use the highest level class for saves. I guess the PDF doesn't really specify so it could be up to the CK's discretion.
Also Moriarty, a Fighter/Assassin 4/4 would only have the BtH of a 4th level fighter not a 5th level one. You take the best, in this case +4. same at 5/5 the BtH would be +5 as this is the best BtH of his two classes a 5th level fighter (+5) and a 5th level Assassin (+2). I do agree about the hit points though it does tend to even out eventually.

Just my observations,

Keith

[moriarty777]

Hi Keith,

A may have misinterpetted the wording regarind the BtH bonues but this was one thing that was re-written and revised in the PDF... The initial appendix would indicate the best BtH of the classes which, in my example, would mean a 4/4 fighter assassin would take the fighters BtH since it is better.

It was rewritten as "take the best to hit bonus of their respective classes"... and I understood it as meaning taking the best of each class (+4 and +1 as a 4/4 fighter/assassin). As I said, that may be my misinterpretation.

However, as my understanding goes... aside from the hitpoints, the total character level are applicable for the saves... but that's pretty much it. You are correct though, the rules don't specify one way or the other. Taking the highest class level for saves may be a better way to go and help balance them out a bit better.
Thanks,

Moriarty the Red
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[johns]

I think if you just ignore the "stacking" issue - i.e. always take the better of the values, never combine them - the whole thing works pretty well.

[Ghul]

Quote:
1) You dont earn new Hit Dice until your new classs levels exceed your old classs levels. So, when Fighter B hits 6th level as a cleric, he will finally roll 1d8 for some added hit points.

I don't have a problem with earning new HD. No matter what, the character is going to gain a static hit point amount for each evel gained once they are total 10th level+. Yes, the hit points will come slightly quicker, but this is not a game imbalance, IME.

Quote:
2) Your levels in these classes do not stack; rather, your character level is the highest level you have achieved in all your various classes. So, since Fighter Bs highest class is fighter (5th level), he is considered a 5th level character.

This I agree with 100% and have done so in my new campaign from the start (back in Feb.). I believe this is how it should be done, as you state, John. And thus, the single-classed character will always have the better saving throws, to balance out all those combined abilities of the multi- or dual- classed characters.

--Ghul

[Treebore]

Yes. When you "take the best" you are making a choice, not adding them together.

[rabindranath72]

These were more or less my same critiques of the original rules (and of the not-so-revised pdf). I guess a new issue, which clearly and unambigously explains things, is a must. As they stand, I find them needlessly confusing and ambiguous.

Cheers,

Antonio

[rabindranath72]

Here is what Gary had to say about how the dualclassing and multiclassing rules in C&C should have been written down. It turns out that they are quite different from what is printed.

Quote:
The Trolls should be doing this

MULTICLASSING

1) Add HD and average at all times. If a level is lost half of the average of one HD is lost in the process.

2) The character's level is the higest of one class and half of the levels of another. thus a F6/M-U4/T6 is equal to 11th level

DUALCLASSING

1) [The level of the character] [...] is the total of the highest plus half of the other.

Ok, now things are really balanced. I did not like that multiclassing and dualclassing were strictly superior to single classing. They should be at most equal, otherwise there would be no point in playing a single class.

[Jason Vey]

Maybe I'm missing something, here...but why not average any and all combined values between classes, making your BtH and HD/HP the average of both classes (Rounded down)? Your character level as well, then, would be an average value.

Multiclassed characters would forfeit the free choice of a Prime in favor of those granted by their classes, up to racial maximums (that is to say, humans could still have 3 Primes, but if they have 2 classes only one of these is chosen and if they have three, they get no free choices; Demihumans would have 2 primes: with 2 classes they forfeit free choices...with three classes, they must choose one class to be a non-Prime class).

[PeelSeel2]

This is why I hate Multiclass and dual class in any form, even in 3.xE. That is why we need the ADVENTURER'S BACKPACK *HINT* *HINT*, so we can just build the proper class from the beginning.

That is also why I liked the IDEA of prestige classes, an extension of your original class with a twist.
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[jester47]

It is pretty easy to solve this.

Use xp goals

An xp goal is simply the ammount of xp needed for that character to make it to the next level.

When a character multiclasses, you look at the experience chart for the new class, if you are a ftr 5 and just achieved your sixth level, but you want that 6th level to be a cleric, you add the first level of cleric but note the experience that it takes to gain another level in cleric and set that as the characters next xp goal.

When you dual class, you have to earn the full xp of both classes before you can advance. Total up the xp required to reach second level, this is the characters new XP goal. When he reaches that goal, both classes level up. Taking the best hd and bonuses from each class and all the abilities. I would continue the tradtion that dual classing (or triple classing) for that matter must begin at character creation.

[angelius]

Or just not allow multi-classing and dual-classing. Since every PC can pretty much do anything another PC can. With the exception of divine and arcane spells etc.
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