Death in your games

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:09 am

Well, due to a recent Dragon article on Death and Dying http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20081010

this topic is making the message board rounds again.

I believe this forum has had such a thread before, but opinions change, rules change, etc... So what is your current opinion on how "Death" should be handled? Player and CK views are desired.

Here is a copy/paste of my first post in the ENWorld thread:

"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aus_Snow View Post

Yeah, I've wondered that too - seems pretty reasonable, really. But I haven't seen the theory borne out, so far. Well, not much - some folks, yes; most, no.

Actually, it's been a couple of the 'rules-liter' games where I've seen the most attachment to PCs, and in particular strong feelings about the dying of said PCs. Making characters up, and statting them out, hasn't - typically - been the biggest downer. /end quote

For me it comes in when I have developed a personality for my character, "gotten into it" if you will. That is when it bugs me. However, I accept it because I like death being real.

Why is there raise dead, etc...? Because coming back to life is a pretty common "story" in many histories, especially when they are also a hero. It is also a great way to allow favored characters to continue to be played.

When PC's die in my game it is up to the player if they come back to life, or start a new character. Usually they like their character and want to continue with it. So they are raised/resurrected.

I also do not penalize characters, or players, for the PC death. I do not make them play a character one level lower, I do not make them lose a point of CON, etc... The death itself usually creates more then enough angst, I certainly do not need to add to it with further "punishments".

I also hate it when DM's do add the insult to injury, because it "Makes it more realistic". Coming back to life is realistic?

I also do not agree with lowering the PC level for new characters. I award XP's to the player, not the PC. The player is the one who has put in the time and effort to earn those XP's. To make them play a new character of a lower level devalues the contribution of the player, and punishes them for their PC's death above and beyond the loss of the PC.

I like to run my games as "realistic" as possible, but I also like for them to be fun. So even though I have no problems with there being PC death in a game, I will do whatever I can to minimize the "negativity" of the experience."

These rules are how I address it in my House Rules document:

Luck points are used to:

Get a re-roll on an attack roll, save, or SIEGE check. Only 1 re-roll allowed.

To turn a death attack to near death. If an attack outright kills your PC you can permanently burn a luck point to put your character at death's door instead.

You don't refresh your Luck points until your goal/mission is accomplished. This is defined as whatever over all goal your party is working towards. Such as recovering an item, escorting this person/caravan from point A to point Z, finding the daughter of the merchant, etc... NOT when short term goals are accomplished.

Lost/permanently burned luck points are regained anytime I witness you roll 3 Nat 20's to hit, make a save, or SIEGE check in one game session. So make sure I keep track of them, and make sure I witness your rolls. Otherwise its up to me to trust/believe you. I may just deny the validation simply to encourage/motivate you to make sure I witness your rolls.

Online games must use the online dice roller to get this benefit.

Death, the effect of:

When you die, the CK is the god. I determine if you suffer any penalties, per the spell write up. If I deem you died well, you will suffer no penalties. If I deem you died badly, you suffer the penalties. So die well and you will have nothing to fear.

GOD CALLS:

This rule is to be used when your character, or group, are about to die. IE to prevent TPK's and character death. Its a long shot, but I have seen it save a character and group from a TPK often enough to recommend remembering this when the party or your character is going down.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:25 am

'Some people argued that death was pass -- the example of online RPGs in which characters respawned indicated players wanted to be free of death's threat.'

This shows how far removed 4E is from previous editions of D&D...

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:31 am

Treebore wrote:
So what is your current opinion on how "Death" should be handled? Player and CK views are desired.

"Roll 4d6, drop lowest die, place in desired order"
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:40 am

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
'Some people argued that death was pass -- the example of online RPGs in which characters respawned indicated players wanted to be free of death's threat.'

This shows how far removed 4E is from previous editions of D&D...

You need to read the rest of the article, that is not how they decided to approach death in 4E. That was just one considered option, one they cast aside early on.

Besides, I am not interested in a critique of 4E for this thread, I wish to know what your thoughts are on how death should be handled, whether your a CK or a player.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:39 am

Death happens. Without the real possibility of a character dieing I feel it takes away some of the excitement of the game.

Yes, it sucks when a favored character bites it. But completing the quest is even sweeter when you succeed without losing a PC.

Coming back from death is rare in my games as well. So, once the reaper gets you, it is likely permanent.

My players have always understood that aspect of my game and respected it.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:27 am

I agree with a lot of what DD said. I think that when players don't respect the repercussions of their actions and death, then players tend to (at some point) become "negligent." Probably what you would probably call "dying badly", Tree. They may not be as respectful of death if they know there's no repercussions, or lasting effects. Being raised from the dead is not commonplace in my games but it does exist.

In my early games as a DM, I was too soft and a lot of my players never respected teh possibility of dying as much as they should. Of course, I never gave them reason to. I'm not CK'ing games with a bulls-eye on the players back, mind you, but the players these days know that if they do something that could result in their deaths, it probably will.

As far as dying during a random encounter, that happens too. I think it's a good representation of having a bad fight. Maybe it represents, in game, that the players underestimated a foe or the players had some fatal bungling. I like to adhere to the philosophy that death lurks around every corner. It doesn't make the players paranoid; it just makes them a little more prudent, rather running all willy-nilly through the dungeon.

Lastly, I think there should be some lasting effect to a character that has died. I believe that a character should have left a part of his life force on the dungeon floor. I don't do it to punish the player, mind you, more than I think that if I was raised from the dead, I don't think I'd feel quite right ever again.

Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:38 am

PC death is a possibility. In my game, it's a real possibility, not a "this is dangerous and you could die -- wink, wink, nudge, nudge" type of concept.

If a PC dies, the player can assume play with a henchman or hireling who becomes a PC (either temporarily or permanently), or he can roll up a new PC.
_________________
http://www.philotomy.com
Lost City Campaign Log

GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:03 am

In my game I award exp's to the character not the player. I do reward for good role playing ext but those as well go to the character.

If that character dies then it is 100% on the player characters to find a way back from death and I dont make it easy at all.

Death is the end of a character a lot more in my games than normal. When you die you start over at 1st level. I often run games with a wide range of character levels.

Right now the game is with: 8th warrior,5th wizard,4th cleric,2nd ranger. I make encounters to fit the party and offer one on one adventures for the lower guys from time to time.

Really I just don't think the DM should give theplayers anything. Make them earn it. Just like those posts around here about how free things are not valued as much as things that cost money, I think characters who strive and work and risk everything areprized more than those where exp/levels/ect were handed to them.
_________________
Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

Subscriber to Crusader Magazine!
http://www.cncsociety.org

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:17 am

Treebore wrote:
You need to read the rest of the article, that is not how they decided to approach death in 4E. That was just one considered option, one they cast aside early on.

Besides, I am not interested in a critique of 4E for this thread, I wish to know what your thoughts are on how death should be handled, whether your a CK or a player.

They didn't come down on that side, but the fact that there was a serious attempt to remove character death from the game tells us something significant, I think.

As far as handling death is concerned, I'm not sure there's an answer (or even a question) because there are quite a few variables. Groups range in their approaches from the killer dungeon, where hearty congratulations are received the first time someone actually reaches 2nd Level, to an epic saga where the characters are the protagonists of a story which would be spoilt by one of them dropping out of it before it's all over. Then there's character level to be considered: if your 3rd level, it's curtains; if you're 12th it's only a problem if it's a TPK and if you're 18th you are essentially immortal. As well as character level, there's also "death level": it's easier to come back from losing all your HP in a fight with hill giants than it is from being turned into a vampire or killed by a vicious magic item like a Bag of Devouring. There's also the differing attitude of the players: some will straight away start rolling the dice, others will be too attached to the dead PC they may stay away for the rest of the campaign.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:53 pm

I agree that the article was very insightful on the design process behind 4e. I found the comment that no mechanic was good enough for 4e unless it 'improved' on that same mechanic in 3e (whether or not that mechanic worked) shows just how different they wanted this edition to be from all the ones before it (and I shudder to think what might have happened if the 'MMO PCs don't have to die, why should D&D PCs?' guy got his way).

And I say this to point out that when you're talking about death in C&C over 4e you're talking apples and airplanes. The design goals of the two games are so different that articles like the one mentioned do little but confuse the issue.

OD&D, which I would argue is the strongest ancestor of C&C, is based around average men (and sometimes dwarves, elves, halflings, etc.), who are only different from other men by their craving for adventure, exploring dangerous areas of the unknown knowing full well that instant death can lurk around every corner (one very funny poster on RPG.net called it a 'fantasy vietnam'). Dying has real consequences and is pretty much irreversable until higher levels. What makes them heroes is not their levels or abilities (which they have to work hard to earn), but the fact that they push on knowing this.

4e, on the other hand, is about heroic characters who are far above the average man in talent even at 1st level, looking for epic battles with evil. Death is not as major a concern because all the other rewards outweigh it by a factor of 10 at least and when you get close to it, you will have plenty of warning and can make a break for it with a good chance of gettign away to 'surge up' and come back again. Even when you die, the penalties are not all that tough, as levelling is fast and there is no strain on the body from constantly being killed and ressurection is commonplace. So the focus is less on fear and thus the heroics are all based on how spectacularly you outmanuever and smite your enemies.

There are a few good middle paths, though. First there is the 'crit' system of WFRP. Once the character's reach 0hp, start havign every hit equal a roll on the critical chart with a level equal to the damage of the hit. The effects could be minor, breaking fingers or losing teeth while still leaving you able to fight, or major, from broken ribs severely debilitating your combat capability to instant death. This will give your characters a chance to run once they hit or get close to 0hp instead of going unconcious, leaves the threat of true death and also adds a nifty way to make adventurers wear their victories and defeats i nthe manner of scars, missing bits and other delightful disfigurements ('That elf ain't pretty no more, hur hur!')

One of the things I've done is to allow the PCs in a critical moment (such as when there is one PC and one enemy left standing in an epic battle to see whose party carrries the day and whose is dogmeat) to make a CHA (for willful characters) or CON save (at a minus equal to the damage below 0) to stay concious and fight on until they are struck again. A 'second wind' of sorts.

The last time this happened, you could have cut the tension with a knife as a single PC and a single Gnoll, both at 1 hit point were doing their best to make sure the enemy suffered that last hit. The Gnoll triumphed, but only managed to knock the PC down to 0, so I allowed him a CHA save (he was a Bard) and he made it and fought on. Of course, he missed and failed to take the Gnoll down, so he ended up Hyena meat on the Gnoll's next swing, but everyone agreed that it was a very exciting moment and that the character would be well remembered (especially by his brother, who survived due to his heroically leading the enemy away from the rest of the party).

Another method would be to have the characters captured instead of killed. The PCs then have to escape their doom without any resources. Admittedly, it's barely a second chance and it requires DM fiat and the fact that it was an intelligent creature and not a Gelatinous Cube that took them down, but this sort of 'fate' helping out the players is a handy tool in the DM's toolbox to keep the players from suffering an ignomonious end before they get to the meat of the adventure.

I'm sure others have some ideas as well, but these keep the threat of death real and stops play from turning into a supers game while offering some less harsh alternatives to make the PCs a little less likely to die at the swing of the first goblin sword they encounter...

GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:07 pm

I think he just didnt want this thread to devolve into another bash 4E/defend 4E thread.

Instead he wanted to find out what side of the board your games fall and how you deal with it. Not our thoughts on how some other game we do or dont play deals with it.

I will refrain from bashing the bashers for not really knowing what they are talking about. Well other than that one sentence
_________________
Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

Subscriber to Crusader Magazine!
http://www.cncsociety.org

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:12 pm

Do something stupid, and you die. Or, you get severely hurt, possibly losing an eye, ear, toe, or some other bodily member you'd probably want to keep. Death is a reality in the game, but it is one that can be overcome, through smart play and luck -- it can also be bypassed at higher levels (very high levels, like 16+,) where, basically, it becomes a nuisance rather than a scare (that is what level loss is for...) However, even then, it still happens. Characters die. If they didn't, there'd be no reason to have character creation.

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:45 pm

serleran! Is that really you, if so, welcome back.
_________________
Lord Aladar

Warden of the Welk Wood

Baron of the Castles & Crusades Society

The Poster formerly known as Alwyn

Senior Gamer - Member of the Senior RPG Tour

"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT - At least not in Yu Gi Oh"
http://www.cncsociety.org/

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:52 pm

"Death is the CK's way of telling you its time to roll up a new character." ~ me
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:06 pm

GameOgre wrote:
I think he just didnt want this thread to devolve into another bash 4E/defend 4E thread.

Instead he wanted to find out what side of the board your games fall and how you deal with it. Not our thoughts on how some other game we do or dont play deals with it.

I will refrain from bashing the bashers for not really knowing what they are talking about. Well other than that one sentence

Yes, the question in my OP is how you handle death in your games as a CK, and for those who only play, how do you like for death to be handled?
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:08 pm

Aladar wrote:
serleran! Is that really you, if so, welcome back.

I'm not convinced, yet.
But I do agree that stupidity should not be forgivable. If you can recover from a blunder, more power to you, but I definitely would not cover your butt because you decided to handle a situation like a boob. I won't go out of my way to kill a player, but I won't take it wasy on him, either.

I haven't played C&C yet, but I'm sure I'd be the same as in a D&D game. If I die, I'd like the option to return. I wouldn't want the GM/DM/CK not give me that option. As such, I'd prefer not to have any lasting effects, but I would fully expect there to be. If worse came to worse (meaning not having a choice), I'd roll a new character.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:19 pm

GameOgre, I wasn't bashing anything, but since the article was a point of reference in the original post and I read it, as I assumed Tree intended me to do, then I had to look at the problem from the point of view that 4e does it one way (and why it does it that way) and C&C does it another (and why it does). Responsible analysis requires you to do so.

And I provided three good 'middle ground' ways of handling the issue, one of which I use. So I think I answered the question.

And considering I read the books and the article, telling me I don't know what I'm talking about is bashing me, regardless. That's like saying 'I don't insult people, especially stupid people with stupid opinions.'

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:32 pm

Maybe I should just remove the article link then. I referenced it in case anyone was interested in reading it and because it is the catalyst for the topic, but the reason I have for this thread is to see how people handle it in their games.

If anyone wants to talk 4E design feel welcome to start a thread in the appropriate Forum for this and I'll join in. Its the last forum when you have the main page open.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:14 pm

Luther

I have found death in 4E far outside the opinion you seem to hold and would welcome a post about those differances. This place is not the place for it however, so I limited myself to a snarky comment. You are right about me bashing you a little and though it was meant lightly if you are offended in any way....
On the subject of death.........I still stand by the old make the players pay through the nose any chance you can get. Resurections are for wimps!!
_________________
Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

Subscriber to Crusader Magazine!
http://www.cncsociety.org

Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:02 pm

Death is an obstacle 1st level PCs cannot overcome in my campaign world. A raise dead or resurrection spell are completely beyond the resources of a 1st level party. Down the road, they may be able to access those magics. Fortunately, rolling up new PCs isn't hard once you are even modestly familar with the system.

While it hasn't come up in my campaign yet, I do not intend to make players start over again at first level when they roll up new PCs if the party has advanced past that stage. I haven't finalized a rule, but I think I would make new PCs start one level below the lowest long-term member of the party.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:04 pm

Treebore wrote:
Maybe I should just remove the article link then. I referenced it in case anyone was interested in reading it and because it is the catalyst for the topic, but the reason I have for this thread is to see how people handle it in their games.

If anyone wants to talk 4E design feel welcome to start a thread in the appropriate Forum for this and I'll join in. Its the last forum when you have the main page open.

Probably a good idea Tree, as it looks like it is part of the discussion. I'll join you there when I feel like opening a can of worms

GameOgre wrote:
I have found death in 4E far outside the opinion you seem to hold and would welcome a post about those differances. This place is not the place for it however, so I limited myself to a snarky comment. You are right about me bashing you a little and though it was meant lightly if you are offended in any way....

No worries. all my posts seem to be minconstrued lately. Must be something in the ether
As mentioned above, though, I'm not about to open up a debate on 4e. Although I know it would be handled far more civily here than RPG.net (you can still see the smoke from here) I prefer to leave it at 'It ain't my cup of tea' and get on with life. The exception above wasn't really an exception as I was just trying to deconstruct the dissonance between the two by pointing out that death is more of a defining thematic cornerstone for one, not say one is better than the other.

I'm probably just going to have to add a permanent YMMV to my signature for future reference...

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:07 pm

Buttmonkey wrote:
I haven't finalized a rule, but I think I would make new PCs start one level below the lowest long-term member of the party.

In 2nd Edition I used a new PC could begin with 75% XP of the party average.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:12 pm

I let the last character who died start with the same experience, but since he got none of the treasure, he's a bit behind.

For future, though, I think I'm going with the Buttmonkey Standard (hey, that's catchy!) of one level below the lowest level in the party. Another option, if that would take them below the minimum for the current adventure would be to drop them to the middle point of the previous level.

And as always... well, read the new sig...
_________________
IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:25 pm

In my games, when a character falls below 0 hit points he is dead or dying, depending on the situation. I don't usually play high enough level games to bother with resurrection or raise dead. New characters typically start at level one, but the option to use a former henchman or other non player character associate may well exist. Introducing a new high level character into an ongoing campaign is an unusual solution for me.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:41 pm

In my games death is for good. There are no rezzies and the players know this. Of course they accept that adventurers come with the hazard of being spun, spooled, mutilated and folded as well. It's a part of the job description.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:20 pm

Buttmonkey wrote:
Death is an obstacle 1st level PCs cannot overcome in my campaign world. A raise dead or resurrection spell are completely beyond the resources of a 1st level party. Down the road, they may be able to access those magics. Fortunately, rolling up new PCs isn't hard once you are even modestly familar with the system.

While it hasn't come up in my campaign yet, I do not intend to make players start over again at first level when they roll up new PCs if the party has advanced past that stage. I haven't finalized a rule, but I think I would make new PCs start one level below the lowest long-term member of the party.

This is why I say I give the player the XP's, not the character. The player has put in the time and effort getting that character to those XP levels. to take any away just further penalizes the player over their PC death.

So when they opt for a new character they get the same XP's, unless Raise is available, then I will put them at the bottom of their current level for wanting to switch characters.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

dachda · Post by **dachda** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:07 pm

Treebore wrote:
This is why I say I give the player the XP's, not the character. The player has put in the time and effort getting that character to those XP levels. to take any away just further penalizes the player over their PC death.

So when they opt for a new character they get the same XP's, unless Raise is available, then I will put them at the bottom of their current level for wanting to switch characters.

This has always been my method too, starting way back in the high school days of 1st ed. Especially because often, I had PCs die, not because their player did something dumb, but because another player did something dumb. It didn't feel right to 'punish' the player whose character died (by making them start again at 1st lvl) for the sins of a player whose character survived his own stupidity.

But of course each to his own. As long as your player's come back for more the CK must be doing more things right than wrong!
_________________
Sir Dachda McKinty,

Margrave and Knight of Portlandia
Castles & Crusades Society

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:19 pm

I should also point out, since the original post asked about it, that, in my games, when a character dies, and an attempt is made to bring them back, Death must be overcome, this regardless of what means is used for the rejuvenation -- reincarnation, resurrection, wish, raise dead, whatever. The reason is quite simple: death is a potent force in the world, something even the Gods must give umbrage, and it does not let its grip go lightly (hence the many undead in the world.) It is not always a difficult thing, as Death can ask for numerous different things (ie, adventure hooks) or it can be a straight fight (likely to end with more in its clutch). Or, Death can be requested to provide a temporary reprieve, and the character returns as a form of undead.

I was inspired by Requiem: The Grim Harvest but did not like the execution of the rules.

I'll probably change this next game, but for now, this is how I want to run it.

Jungger · Post by **Jungger** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:31 pm

We all gotta go sometime, kid.

ThrorII · Post by **ThrorII** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:42 pm

Treebore wrote:
So what is your current opinion on how "Death" should be handled? Player and CK views are desired..

Suviving characters: take the dead guys sh#t and divide it up.

Dead character: dead, unless surivors want to have a side quest to find a 9th level cleric and a 5K gp gem to resurrect him (not easy, gems that big are VERY rare and guarded by more than just goblins).

Dead character's Player: either roll up a new character (at 1 level lower than your dead one), or convince your table mates to quest to resurrect you.

CK: chuckle evilly over his game screen, bwahahahahaah!

Troll Lord Games

Death in your games

Death in your games

Re: Death in your games

Re: Death in your games