What am I doing wrong?

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:57 pm

I'm having a problem with my C&C campaign.

My group is getting killed/knocked unconscious left and right - from creatures that are SUPPOSED to be a normal challenge for them ie, goblins and the occasional bugbear. A bugbear with a broadsword does 2d4 damage. One hit, the warrior's knocked unconscious. A goblin fires an arrow at the mage - one hit, the mage is unconscious. The knight of the group died last night (granted, through his own foolish actions), and while he was very cool about it, I felt like I had let him down somehow.

So what am I doing wrong? Should I try to scale the encounters back even more (I'm not sure this is even possible - unless I start throwing mosquitos at the group)? I don't want to annihilate my group every session!

Ink
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Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:10 pm

What level is the group?

Maybe just throwing less of the beasties, rather than downgrading to mosquitos, might help.

Ghul · Post by **Ghul** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:11 pm

I suppose your group has come from third edition as mine has. It is important to give them reminders that they can be outmatched at any turn, killed by the lowliest of sorts. No longer are they running super-powered characters with feats like cleave and such. They need to exercise caution and be willing to retreat. If they don't respect your wisdom in this regard, well, let the dice fall as they may and let lessons be leanred the old-school way. One thing I do, however, to help a little in preventing 1st level character death, is allow max hit points at first level.

--Ghul

mudpyr8 · Post by **mudpyr8** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:30 pm

You could also take a look at this: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

From my experience with HackMaster and running my C&C game using these rules it reduces the probability of a one hit kill against a PC while at the same time extending that risk to higher levels.

There is a definite difference between 3.5 combat and C&C in terms of what you should and should not be doing to over extend your party's reach. As a CK, take time to ensure that the pacing of your encounters is at the level of drama that you think is appropriate.

Also, be sure to award planning and smart play. If the party is able to ambush a group - give it to them, give them a round or two while the bad guys scramble to arm themselves and either run or defend. Don't be afraid to have the bad guys run off either, only to regroup.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:35 pm

Your players need to take some oft repeated advice from Gary Gygax it seems.

In a tactically overwhelming situation the wize party learns to 'defeat' the obstical by going round it, not confronting it directly.

Or in the words of the great Monty Python... "Run awaaaaaaay!"

Not every encounter is designed to be faced head on.

By awarding experience for 'defeating' the encounter, not just by dint of arms, it make other methods just as valued.
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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:54 pm

Hmm....Yes, everyone in this group comes from a 3.5 background. I hadn't factored that into the equation. Combat in 3.5 is definitely different from combat in C&C. In C&C, you have heroes. In D&D 3.5, you have superheroes.

While I don't want to be the merciless CK who regularly destroys his entire gaming group, what you're all saying definitely has merit: the burned hand teaches best. Once my players recognize how brutal and potentially fatal combat can be, perhaps they'll be a little more cautious and excercise the "run like hell" option more often.

Still, I think I might scale back just a bit. When two thirds of the party is rendered unconscious in a single round, perhaps some rolls are in need of fudging. I just want everyone to have a good time, after all. =)

Thanks, guys! You've made me feel alot better about the situation!

Ink
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:57 pm

Once characters start dying a lot the players will learn to refine their strategy.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:05 pm

What's the average AC of the characters? If the fighter types are something like 12, you need to get them some armor. The mages should be staying out of melee, and using something ranged, coming in for melee attacks only when they're delivering powerful touch spells, since they can't hit crap otherwise.

If these characters are very low level (1-3) then don't use a critical system. One hit is potentially a death, anyway.

Also, if you're just rolling exceptionally well... use a different die. Roll two of the same type, but of different color, and mentally decide before rolling which is the real roll.

The players have to realize they're the ones being challenged... not the characters. C&C assumes the player is smart enough to know a situation is bad, and even smarter to run or try to change it.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:26 pm

It can also have a lot to do with plain luck. If a party and an encounter are pretty evenly matched, the skirmish can become very deadly if PCs are rolling lousy and bad guys are rolling great. Seems like an obvious statement, but it happens.

This is a great example of why I use a CK screen, everytime. When the bad guys are getting thebetter of the party, and the party just donsn't get the "run away" tactic in time, I admit I fudge a few dice rolls on behalf of the party.

......................................Omote

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angelius · Post by **angelius** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:38 pm

What level are the PCs?

For lower levels 1-5 or so, I find that if the total monster HD in an encounter = sum of the character levels provides a fair but challenging encounter where about 25-50% of the PC's should be knocked unconcious but win.

Less than their levels = easier

More than their level = bad for them.
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angelius · Post by **angelius** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:39 pm

ps. You have to teach them that running away is a viable option.

I did that by allowing them to face a creature FAR beyond their abilities, an adult white dragon, and "trained" them that running away is OK.
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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:48 pm

The PC's are all level 1. I don't recall the average AC offhand. But, I do use a simplified critical system (natural 20=automatic hit and double damage, natural 1=automatic miss and lose one turn). Perhaps I should stop using this system until the characters are higher in level?

Another thing is that I had them roll their appropriate hit dice at character creation for their starting hp. Perhaps I should have just given them the max starting hp for their class? Hindsight's always 20-20...

And to be honest, the dice rolls were going against the players, as well. I'm playing again on Sunday, so we'll have a short chat and see what we can come up with.
Ink
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angelius · Post by **angelius** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:55 pm

Nah critical is fine! I used that since level 1 too...gotta strike the fear of the CK into them at a young age.

Heck my PCs stats are straight 3d6!

Okay the not starting with full HP at level might be the cause of it...why not just retroactively give them max HP at level 1?
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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:59 pm

I think I'll do that.

Ink
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meepo · Post by **meepo** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:04 pm

The max HP is always a great start. Additionally, if they are outnumbered constantly and don't want additional henchmen, bumping them up to level two BUT leaving them at zero XP can sometimes give them a nice "padding" and a bit more "oomph" in terms of firepower.

Of course, then it means it will seem to take forever forever until they level up! But this "patch" has worked in the past for me.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:34 pm

BTW, I played more 3E at GenCon than C&C, and my characters were slaughtered just fine. Of course they were Necromancer module playtests, but still.

Max HP's will definitely help. "Mysterious" dice rolls behind the DM screen should do the rest.

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:39 pm

....and offers of pizza, beer, and scantily clad wo....

What?

Ink
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Combat_Kyle · Post by **Combat_Kyle** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:52 pm

Yes, I give my players max HP at 1st lvl, they always need it! Another thing to consider is giving a HP kicker, like there is in Hackmaster. My GF is starting a C&C campaign next week and every character gets 10 HP plus what they roll for 1st lvl. Lets just say my 1st lvl thief has 13 HP, I am happy as hell! (The fighter has 22, but hes a bastard that rolled max HP). She is a new CK and this shield should help us survive the first few encounters without her killing us. BTW she asked me what and appropriate encounter for the party would be and I gave her this formula, one I use regularly:

Monsters total HD should be </= 1.5 Party HD
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mudpyr8 · Post by **mudpyr8** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:01 pm

As I posted earlier, I like the kicker idea but I play with open ended damage so it kind of balances out. Open Ended Damage doesn't come up all that often and having the extra kicker balances things out.

Of course, because of OED, monsters get a kicker too, although goblins and stirges and such are small enough they do not. Orcs and Gnolls will however.
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PeelSeel2 · Post by **PeelSeel2** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:23 pm

Max hit points at first level. make sure they get a rod of curing or some potions somehow. Also, start trying to reward them for being cautios before encounters, with judicious use of the thief to scout, then let them come up with a plan of attack that maximizes thier impact while lessoning the ability of the enemy to resist. Magic user must have SLEEP!! give the plan a fair chance of success. "Ok the halfling will run into the room and stick his tongue out and insult the orcs, telling them thier mommy was a dwarf! Then when they chase after him, we will be waiting here in ambush. First thing that will happen is sleep on this spot when they come into view, second thing arrows, etc." You get the picture. Encourage them to think tactically.

My 3.5E players started being a lot more cautious after their first whooping. I had to encourage them with ideas too, a little. Once they start thinking outside of the rules and into the situations, a lot of fun can happen.
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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:06 pm

Awesome suggestions, everyone! I love the "hive mind" method of CKing!
Ink
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:13 pm

Like everyone else, I would go with max HP. The types of creatures sounds just fine for 1st level, so maybe just the number encountered should be altered.

Of course if it is just you out-rolling your players, then there really isn't too much you can do about it. I've had nights where as the DM I never rolled below a 15, and none of the players could roll above a 5, thats when they need to know when to go into survival mode and run!

As for fudging dice rolls, that depends on how good your poker face is, and how your players feel about you cheating for them. Myself, if I think a DM/CK is fudging rolls for me, I lose all intrest in that character/campaign.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:17 pm

A HD kicker is not a bad idea, I would keep it low however, and vary it by using 1/2 the classes HD as a kicker. (Barbarian/Monk +6hp down to Wizard/Illusionist +2 HP.) this keeps things more in balance, IMHO.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:20 pm

meepo wrote:
The max HP is always a great start. Additionally, if they are outnumbered constantly and don't want additional henchmen, bumping them up to level two BUT leaving them at zero XP can sometimes give them a nice "padding" and a bit more "oomph" in terms of firepower.

Of course, then it means it will seem to take forever forever until they level up! But this "patch" has worked in the past for me.

I like that idea, starting a 2nd level with 0 XPs. Or maybe just giving them both HD at 1st level, then not rolling for HPs until they reach 3rd level.
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Post by **Fiffergrund** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:10 pm

Fun conversation. BUMPED

I can't be stopped

Litzen Tallister · Post by **Litzen Tallister** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:25 am

Neat thread. I like the idea of training PCs that running is ok, and sometimes advisable, through no contest, "yes we should run from that," encounters. One thing that I've tried is, if I have a monster of some sentience that is likely to be a close call with the party, is to give the monster/npc a motive beyond killing everything that moves. So maybe, the thing just wants to get its hands on the sacrifice offered up by the townsfolk in exchange for it not setting fire to everything. If the PCs are getting stomped, the monster might decide they're not worth playing with anymore and move on to what it really wants, the tasty sacrifice.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:32 am

Litzen Tallister wrote:Neat thread. I like the idea of training PCs that running is ok, and sometimes advisable,

Something we learned the hard way in the 70's. Sounds like the "younger generation" doesn't learn quite as fast.

DMSamuel · Post by **DMSamuel** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:23 am

I think computer games have a bit to do with this for two reasons:
1) in many games you are unable to go to places where you can be out right defeated with little effort, so there is a mentality that ALL games should have that feature
2) many games have a save point and so you can walk around with little fear of running into something un-beatable because you can just go back to your last saved point

Of course, the balance of 3.x/pathfinder and 4e D&D don't help the matter - those games teach players that all combat is supposed to be won and that it is not cool for your GM to throw an unbeatable monster/group at you.

My personal preference is to teach them early and often that they will find some challenges unbeatable until they gain greater power, and even then they must use their brains as well as their brawn. If a few PC's die, oh well, that is part of learning!

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:35 am

The dead threads keep on rising!

It's nice to see some of the old posts and, better yet, posts from the old board members... It is a reminder of who used to be regulars and who have since moved on as well as those still around.

Thanks for the memories!

PS -- A tough challenge is having the total of monster HD matching the total party level. Acceptable to do but not for every encounter. I also believe in max HP at first level.

M

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:44 am

moriarty777 wrote: PS -- A tough challenge is having the total of monster HD matching the total party level. Acceptable to do but not for every encounter.
M

That used to be what we considered a balanced challenge when we played AD&D

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