Sub-systems???

Charliebananas · Post by **Charliebananas** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:43 pm

The creation rules being an effects based system, what do subsystems do exactly and what needs a subsystem...

Say I'm building a tank, it has a omni pulse laser unit - turret weapon, so will need a subsystem of equal size.

It also has an on board computor and comms unit, will these need a subsystem?

It also has a rack of rockets, so will need another subsystem.

And finaly it has bank of powerful lights for illumination, but they can also be set to strobe (SFX-daze), would this need a subsystem.

So long story short what effect do sub-systems have?

Cheers

Mike

cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:07 pm

Subsystems let you build more advanced, expensive things for a smaller "cost" on the host craft/item.

Look at it like this, The Gunship in the Field Manual has 2 Size 10 Subsystems and one Size 7 Subsystem. All that for 8.5 BP.

If it mounted a Deflector Screen (S6), Light Assault Cannon (S8), and Missile Battery (S10), it would have spent 8.5 BP but gained the BP of those items without "paying" for them in its own cost. So for 8.5 BP it can mount 82 BP (the total BPs of the Deflector Screen, LAC, and Missiles)... think of the savings!

Subsystems allow you to mount things on craft/items without having to put together HUGE BP costs into the base item.

Subsystems can also stand as "flavor" by thinking of them as hardpoints or mounts on a craft... so a SIEGE Engineer could say that the gunship has one Size 10 Subsystem that is a modular hardpoint. That means the SE could allow characters to "hot-swap" items out before missions/battles if they want.

In the end, it would be very hard to build your tank without subsystems, as to do so would put the tank's BP into such a range that it would either be very large, very expensive, way too high tech or too unreliable (or some mixture of the four). It's a cost savings device. The negative to them is that they can be damaged and removed from the craft, since they appear on the craft/item's Wound track. Also, they can be targeted since they have a Size stat.
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Charliebananas · Post by **Charliebananas** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:15 pm

I'll have to go and re-read...I didn't realise you got free BP's in a Subsystem, that would make sense. Thanks.

cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:43 pm

Well, it's not "free BPs" per se... you can mount any item that has a Size Rating up to the Subsystem's Rating. So if you have a Size 10 Subsystem, you can mount any item that has a Size of 10 or less. You can only mount one, but you can mount it. For example, the Full Prosthetic Limb in the Field Manual has a Subsystem 6 in it. You could choose to mount a Submachine Gun in this slot as a mounted weapon. The SMG has a Size of 5, so it can fit into the slot. Now you not only have a Cyber-arm, but it's got a SMG built in.

Heck, if you wanted to, you could put Subsystems on Guns to allow for scopes or grenade launcher mounts... it's entirely up to the designer.

Basically, Subsystems let you mix your peanut butter and your chocolate for yummy, and deadly, results.

Make sense?
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Charliebananas · Post by **Charliebananas** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:20 pm

Yeh i get it you create the item and provided it has the correct size you can fit it to the subsystem...

If the item is integral to the builde, say twin linked machineguns on the batpod, how does this effect the cost of the vehicle do you have to buy both, or would you not use a subsystem for this?

I'm thinking that the player buys the basic item, if it has a hardpoint/subsystem slot then they can add an item later at extra cost.

cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:44 pm

You can always integrate things in without subsystems. You could very easily make a Tank like this:

Tank, R2 S20 T8 V18, Automatic. Shooting +3, Ground +1, Defense +1, Move 1 (Ground), Vehicular Scale, Armor 2, Durability 6, SFX: Ammo, Flaw: Temperamental, 3 Wounds.

This is a pretty basic tank that would let you use the Ammo quality to mimic either high explosive rounds or the rapid fire machine gun.

You could also do this:

Tank, R2 S20 T8 V15, Automatic. Ground +2, Defense +3, Move 1 (Ground), Vehicular Scale, Armor 2, Subsystem 10, Subsystem 8, Durability 6.

You can see this tank is "cheaper" and has more flexibility in what you mount on the subsystems.

So the final answer as to the "batpod"... build it as you think would be best... Subsystems don't have to mean "hot-swappable hardpoints"... they could just as easily be weapons bays that are designed for a single weapon to be installed. Heck, if you're that worried, put a Flaw on the vehicle called "Static Configuration" that states that once a subsystem is mounted, it cannot be removed without extensive work (a 3 BP Flaw).
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The Pugilist · Post by **The Pugilist** » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:46 pm

cheeplives wrote:
Well, it's not "free BPs" per se... you can mount any item that has a Size Rating up to the Subsystem's Rating.

...

Make sense?

Wait, so now I am confused.
Do you pay for the subsystems separately at all, or are they included in the price of the subsystem (does a size 14 subsystem cost 7 points on the main vehicle and then you also have to pay for the value of the subsystem separately)?

cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:38 am

The Pugilist wrote:
Do you pay for the subsystems separately at all, or are they included in the price of the subsystem (does a size 14 subsystem cost 7 points on the main vehicle and then you also have to pay for the value of the subsystem separately)?

Depends on how you are running the game... If we're talking big craft, I'd probably make the craft's total cost be equal to the largest Value of the craft or subsystems mounted. Remember, Value is exponential, so a Value 25 craft isn't really going to see it's Value increased if you add a couple of Value 12 things to it.

But you could require a purchasing roll for each subsystem if you want... depends on how you want to run the game.

If you're talking the Building Point cost rather than Value, then it goes like this: 7 BP will allow you to mount a Size 14 subsystem on the craft. You build the subsystem as it's own piece of equipment, completely independent of the original craft. The only real limit is that the subsystem you're building has to have it's Size be less than or equal to 14. The BPs put in it on the craft affect the craft itself, not the subsystem.

Make sense?
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The Pugilist · Post by **The Pugilist** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:39 am

Yes, that makes perfect sense.

I was conflating Value and Build Points. Now that I have read carefully through the rules and have read your post, I understand.

GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:07 pm

I understand Subsystems much better after reading this. If Starsiege had its own section I would say it needs a sticky!
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Hunin · Post by **Hunin** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:11 pm

I concur. This is a great explanation of the Subsystem which isn't very clear in the rules.

My only problem with the rulebook is the lack of examples on how to do things. It would be nice to have an example for each rule section. I've re-read the 3 examples for creating items / effects in the rulebook and they helped clarify the rules a lot.