Wizards and fighters

[daddystabz]

I haven't gotten to get any of my characters up to higher levels yet but I was just wondering if wizards are insanely overpowering like they were in normal D&D in the higher levels and if fighters get completely overshadowed as well, similar to old school D&D? Has anyone found any good adjustments to alleviate this if this is normally the case?

Thanks in advance!
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[DangerDwarf]

Ayup, at high levels Wizards are still ultra-mega make your eyes bleed if you stand too close powerful.

I've never considered it a problem though. After suffering through many levels of being knocked unconscious by a thrown roll of wet toilet paper, the higher levels are the wizard's payoff.

Even so, higher levels still play well enough, you just scale the bad guys accordingly and have them fight smart.

In my old, high level C&C Dragonlance game, the wizard was godly, but even he sweat when the critters made it past the fighter.

The fighter was still a good solid class at high levels, just not as flashy as the wizard.

[DangerDwarf]

Fighters can be pretty snazzy in their own right too. This is my wife's fighter at the end of our Age of Mortals Dragonlance campaign:

Not flashy like a wizard, but damned effective.


Kylana Lethani
Lawful Good, Level 22 Silvanesti Elf Fighter

STR: 13 (22 w/belt)

DEX: 17 (21 w/gloves) PRIME

CON: 14

INT: 13 PRIME

WIS: 10

CHA: 14

AC: 25 (Lethani Family Armor)

HP's: 139

Primary Attacks: TWP Fighting Style Specialist. 2 attacks per weapon.

The Redeemer +26 to Hit 1d8+9 damage (Dragon Bane Weapon)

Sylvan Blade +27 to Hit, 1d8+10 damage (+1d6 outside)

Other Magical Items: Ring of Evasion, Quiver of Habbakuk, Brooch of Shielding, +2 Flaming Longbow, Shard of Light, Cloak of Elven Kind, Gloves of Dexterity, Girdle of Strength, Circlet of persuasion, Major Ring of Fire Protection, Lethani Family Armor (Elven Chainnail w/ Major Cold Resistance).

[Treebore]

Yep, a well equipped fighter still kicks some serious butt. I only found wizards, and clerics, to be overly god like in games where the fighters were magic item poor.

Besides, a fighter in a movable anti magic shell will likely kill a wizard with ease no matter their level. Not to mention Paladins with Holy Avengers. So spellcasters get to do all kinds of super cool stuff, but are pretty simplistic to bring down.

Like the fighter. If they have an item that lets them teleport in close and quick, then an item with which to activate an anti magic shell before the wizard wizens up enough to teleport away, the wizard is dead, or captured. They cannot stand up to a fighter, period, without their magic. Even with their magic, up close, is very dangerous.

Optimally my fighter would be invisible and at range. So the wizard won't be likely to see invisible, etc... Then my fighter teleports in near the wizard. Next round they activate their anti magic shell, next round they start killing the effectively helpless wizard.

Or having a teleporting grappling master, which is why I love Monks. Teleport in, grapple the spell caster, and the spell caster is dead except for the dying. Which will be accomplished in short order. Unless they have an item which allows them to get away. Which usually doesn't, because the teleport usually carries the grappling monk along for the ride. So unless the spell caster can teleport to where he has allies to help him defeat the grappler before the grappler kills him...

So wizards are kick butt, yet they are still far from undefeatable with a few good strategies.
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[DangerDwarf]

Treebore wrote:
Or having a teleporting grappling master, which is why I love Monks. Teleport in, grapple the spell caster, and the spell caster is dead except for the dying.

Bah! Only if the wiz is an amateur.
Grappled?

1. Timestop (Verbal Component only)

2. Step Away

3. Offensive Barrage of Choice

4. Clean up on isle monk.

[Julian Grimm]

I've only played in one game where we made it to high levels. By about level 10 we were retiring pc's and bringing our henchmen and heirs up for standard adventuring.
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[Treebore]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Bah! Only if the wiz is an amateur.
Grappled?

1. Timestop (Verbal Component only)

2. Step Away

3. Offensive Barrage of Choice

4. Clean up on isle monk.

Ah, but by the book (C&C PH) the caster can only try to break free. I think grappling assumes the old hand over the mouth trick keeps spell casters from taking any other action. Only my house rules would even allow them to use an item.

Plus, if the game is of a level where the wizard is casting Time Stop, the Monk, if it is mine, would have done his best to have that Anti Magic Shell item, and with his movement rate, doesn't even need to teleport in since grappling is a melee attack and can be done in combo with the Charge.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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[DangerDwarf]

Depends also as to whether or not your CK has ever allowed a grapple character shout out to his companions. Across all editions, that was always our purpose of making sure the wiz kept a few verbal only spells on styandby.

And, we could play the magic item game all day, because for every item a melee type could have there is a magic item a wiz could have that makes him still a viable defender against said melee type. (My staff of the magi laughs at your antimagic shell!, etc)

Tis the beauty of the game.

[Treebore]

How is that? Absolutely no magic, or magic items, work inside of the Shell. So the wizard can do nothing, and likely has only an AC of 10, while the fighter still has their BtH, their natural STR bonus, the weapon is still expert, and they still get their fighter specialization bonus'. So the Wizard is going to get their butts handed to them. The Monk is similarly kick butt, especially with their increased dice damage, etc...

Another thing that needs to be clarified about Monks in C&C, does their hand to hand damage dice apply in Grappling?
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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[DangerDwarf]

Artifacts do. Staff of the Magi and a slew of other handy items are considered artifacts.

[DangerDwarf]

if I remember correctly anyways. Would have to look up anti-magic shell to be sure.

[DangerDwarf]

Yeah, artifacts immune.

[Treebore]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, artifacts immune.

Ah, I forgot the Staff of the Magi was changed to artifact level.
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[DangerDwarf]

Yup, and use it to throw a few webbies up between you and the glowy fighter guy and then unleash a barrage of lightning bolts from the staff.

All else fails, plane shift and catch him unaware later. Then, If you are feeling particularly snarky, wait till you you believe the anti-magic item is no longer active and wish it to you.

[zombiehands]

It might be alittle off the topic.

But my 1e high level adventures High level fighters were lords commanding armies. The wizard might have more physical power but the fighter had social power.

High level and thieves and assassins were quite powerful having thier own "army"

My own high level party from 9-15ish had the fighter become a lord with the cleric's followers blostering his own and the cleric and wizard were advisors. A half-orc fighter/thief became a "mob" boss. With the exps for gps taxes and titing were the biggest sources of gaining levels.

After 9th their was few "dungeons" the advetnures were more battles or special missons to protect the kingdom. Or searches for potions of longevity.

It all kind starting falling apart with the cleric gaining reserection.

Who was most powerful?

9-12 Most people thought it was the fighter since he was the main source of gold

After that, most pcs thought it was either the cleric or the wizard (most likely the cleric) since he could res.

However in the end the half-orc snuk into the wizards tower and garroted him, and stole his body.

[DangerDwarf]

Good point with that. In previous editions, the fighters in my games did usually have a small standing army and a keep and some pull politically.

[Lord Dynel]

I also agree that a fighter is pretty respectable in his own right at higher levels. Again, he doesn't command mighty arcane forces, but I don't think he has to.

I did a bit of "research" a while back concerning this very thing. At 10th level (that's pretty "high" in my book - I don't know about anyone else), a wizard is going to roughly have three rounds before he becomes toast at the hands of the fighter. This test was done between a friend and I, he using the wizard and me the fighter. My fighter had no magic items; I was only using a stock fighter. The wizard had no magic items, either. We both used humans, and I gave the fighter the three physical attributes as primes (this actually helped a lot, IMHO, having Dex as one of my primes). I don't have my "official" notes in from of me, but the fighter won five or six times out of ten. The fighter hit nearly every time, using two attacks per round, and average damage was around 13-15 points per round, iirc, when both attacks hit.

Some things I remember noticing was that the wizard won when I failed saves. Mainly against fireballs or lightning bolts. I also recall that my friend was hesitant, after the first few battles, of using too much utility - shield didn't offer enough protection, monster summoning just didn't cut it, and the like. I do recall fly working in one battle and mirror image working in another. We tried to vary the tactics in our battles, as to replicate different scenarios.

I'm sure my testing was nowhere near "official" playtesting quality, but I came to the conclusion that a fighter is a pretty viable option when it comes to high-level playability.

[bighara]

semi-OT

@DD: do you ignore the "Class Prime" in your games, DD? I noticed Kylana doesn't have ST as a Prime even though she is a Fighter. Just curious.

[moriarty777]

Ah... the often debated topic... I remember first playing AD&D 20 years or so ago and debating this very issue.

In terms of one-on-one... we really have to consider the environment as well as the 'preparedness' of the wizard. To be 'best' effective, the Fighter will probably need to close into melee. The wizard on the other hand has to avoid this at all costs. If the warrior reaches his 'objective' or somehow neutralizes the spellcasting abilities of the mage, then the battle will be his. If the wizard stays a step ahead and has a great array of prepared spells at his disposal, the fighter will not survive.

Then again, a wizard won't be likely to face off a warrior on a battlefield either nor will the fighter necessarily be alone or ill-equipped should he have to hunt a spellcaster down.

I think that, overall these are balanced quite nicely. Each will do better given certain situations like all the other classes.

M
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[moriarty777]

bighara wrote:
semi-OT

@DD: do you ignore the "Class Prime" in your games, DD? I noticed Kylana doesn't have ST as a Prime even though she is a Fighter. Just curious.

Good catch... I'm curious myself.

M
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http://www.arcanacreations.com

[DangerDwarf]

Yes. One of my few house rules. Choose primes as desired. Makes more sense to me and allows for more variance in archtypes.