Saving Throws: Harsh?

[pancakehead]

Howdy all, I'm new to the rules and I'm looking at the DCs needed for saves and ... I haven't seen OD&D in a while, but was it this tough to save? Most characters will have just two prime abilities, and a +1 or a +2 bonus to a stat if they're lucky.

So a 2nd level wizard against a 1st level character without an INT prime is going to require the PC to roll probably an 18 or 19 to save.

As you all have played the game ... is this as harsh as I'm thinking it is?

[Omote]

The challenge level of the Wizard's Spell is based on his caster level. So, if the 2nd level wizard is casting a spell, the CL (Challenge level) will be 2. 18 (Challenge Base, because the fighter does not have INT as prime) + 2 (Challenge Level) = 20

If the fighter is required to roll a save versus the arcane spell all he gets to roll is 1d20 + his level + the bonus of the relavant attribute. So yes, in your example the saving throw is that tough.

-O
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[bighara]

Depends how you mean.

It's harsh in the sense that a low-level PC isn't going to make a successful non-prime Save very often. To use your 2nd level wizard example, let's say the Wizard NPC is fleeing from the party after stealing their treasure map. He casts Change Self to appear as an old peasant woman in order to trick his pursuers.

The 1st level Fighter sees the "old woman" hobbling along and grabs her arm to stop her and ask if she's seen any evil wizards sprinting by. By touching the wizard, he's "interacted" with the illusion, allowing an INT save to realize something's not right (the crone's homespun sleeve feels like a silk robe, etc.)

Now for the math:

Fighter's INT is a non-Prime: CB 18. He also gets no modifier (Let's say INT 10, just for giggles)

Wizard's caster level: 2, so the CL = 2

18+2 = 20

The fighter's player rolls a d20 and adds +1 for his level. Unless he rolls a 19 or 20, he'll fail to notice the illusion (10% chance). For fun, I just rolled and got a 17. Good, but not good enough. At this point the wizard might try a CHA check v. the Fighter's INT to try and disguise his voice and/or trick the Fighter into believing that the Wizard turned into a bat and flew away (or what have you).

Now, is that harsh?

Well, the Fighter didn't have a heckuva lot of a chance to make his Save, that's true. But should he have? He's a not-so-bright sword & steel guy. And just starting out (1st level) to boot. A Wizard of comparable or slightly more experience should have his spells work against this sort of target most of the time.

Now, on the other hand, the Fighter wasn't trying to resist a lethal spell effect or some such. It was merely a minor glamer. The GM needs to be fair in the types of challenges he throws at his players.

The other factor to consider is that PCs are typically working together. It's not the Fighter's JOB to deal with stuff like this. Imagine the same scenario above but the Fighter is chasing the Wizard in the company of a Rogue with INT as one of his Primes. The Rogue would have to roll against CB 12 and CL 2 (=14). He adds his level (+1) to his Save and -because he likes actually succeeding at things like his Find Traps rolls- he has a high enough INT score to garner a +1 modifier (call it INT 14). Now the Rogue would succeed in his Save v. the glamer almost half the time (45%). Once again, I roll a d20: the result is a 16. So the Rogue peers closely at the Wizard/Crone after touching the sleeve (or whatever) and realizes that there is something odd about this "old woman." A quick grapple and a search gets our heroes their map back and leaves the Wizard with some 'splainin' to do.

[Treebore]

Yes, non Prime saves can be tough. Play a human with DEX, INT, and CHA Primes and you'll do a lot better.

Personally I prefer tough to so easy as to be laughable like they are in other editions/versions of D&D.

However, C&C is also very open/friendly to house rules, and there are several available for this particular issue.
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[pancakehead]

Treebore wrote:
However, C&C is also very open/friendly to house rules, and there are several available for this particular issue.

Go on ... go on ...

[gideon_thorne]

Yes, the game is supposed to be difficult. Otherwise, where's the challenge?
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[Treebore]

pancakehead wrote:
Go on ... go on ...

The most common route I have seen taken is to change the base TN's from 12 and 18 to 12 and 15.
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[pancakehead]

I haven't even played the game yet, but my first thought when I read the rules was ... hm ... maybe these should be lowered by 2 points each to 16 and 10.

But it's the non-primes that are the bigger problem, I take it.

[Relaxo]

Thing is, even though the saves look harder, the characters tend to have more hitpoints in C&C.

and it's just as hard for the NPCs and Monsters, so you don't have the disappointment of every one of your spells failing.

[Treebore]

Relaxo wrote:
Thing is, even though the saves look harder, the characters tend to have more hitpoints in C&C.

and it's just as hard for the NPCs and Monsters, so you don't have the disappointment of every one of your spells failing.

Yep, which is why I stayed with it btb.
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[serleran]

People tend to forget that, in some cases, anyway, spells in C&C are also weaker than their AD&D counterparts (or d20 for that matter.) For example, charm person: it lasts a measly 1 hour / level, regardless of the Intelligence of the victim. In some cases, this makes it far more powerful (oooh, look, that 20th level wizard with the 54876592436543 Intelligence is my buddy for the next hour...) but is far weaker regarding the "dummies" of the world (wow, that lobotomized kobold is my BFF... for an hour...). Other spells affect fewer numbers, have reduced durations, smaller ranges... and so forth, so the saves are harder, sure, but so? Unless it kills, like a disintegrate or something, it doesn't ordinarily cause huge issues (and greatly empowers the illusionist class, by the way.)

But, yeah: the average chance of success is rather low. About 10 - 20% for a 1st level PC in something not Prime. But, that is still 10 - 20%. Others can't do it at all.

I'd say go with BtB and see how it works out. If you find people are failing all the time, reduce the base to 12/16. Or, tell them to select more appropriate Primes for their characters (that is, a character with Strength and Con Prime is not a nimble acrobat... so they should not expect to succeed at every Dex-based action.)
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[DangerDwarf]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Yes, the game is supposed to be difficult. Otherwise, where's the challenge?

Agree. Ruling the world isn't supposed to be easy.

The saves are high, but I play it BtB and its been cool here.

[Lord Dynel]

Welcome to the Crusade, pancakehead!

To echo the last few posters, I'd try it by-the-book to start. I, too, thought that 18 for non-prime saves was a little high until I took some of the things said into consideation. Especially the idea that not everyone is supposed to be good at everything thought. Like serleran said, if you play someone with Str and Con as primes, they're not going to be quick or overly wise, etc.

But I'd say give it a chance first. You can always houserule it if its not working out.

[Omote]

I love the idea that saves are tougher in C&C than other fantasy RPGs. For the point that the Wizard is a vary dangerous person, just like fantasy stories through the ages. Wizards should be feared, and/or respected. Their powers are great and their wrath terrible to behold.

If the CK understands these elements, there is lots of good roleplaying to be found in this tenet.

-O
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[csperkins1970]

pancakehead wrote:
I haven't even played the game yet, but my first thought when I read the rules was ... hm ... maybe these should be lowered by 2 points each to 16 and 10.

But it's the non-primes that are the bigger problem, I take it.

I used a base of 15 for all checks, with primes giving a +5 bonus to checks, meaning that the save split is 15/10.

It has worked REALLY well in my games.

[bighara]

csperkins1970 wrote:
I used a base of 15 for all checks, with primes giving a +5 bonus to checks, meaning that the save split is 15/10.

It has worked REALLY well in my games.

I'm actually using a base 15, +3 for primes in the current campaign. Works fine.

[pancakehead]

I'm currently leading towards a 16/11 DC split on saves and a 15/10 split on everything else. Put another way, a base 16 target DC on saves and +5 with prime attributes, with a 15 target DC on everything else and +5 with primes.

If I was giving the PCs more than 3d6 rolls for their attributes I might do it BtB, but it just seems a little harsh to me.

[The Pugilist]

This seems to be an appropriate place to ask this question, and I don't want to create yet another thread to help me correct my ignorance.
Do monsters, like PCs, get to add their HD/Levels to their Saving Throws?

Thanks!

Edit: The confusion comes from the example of play at the end of the PHB. A 6th level character casts a spell on a 4th level monster (with physical saves). This makes the Challenge Class 24. According to the example, the Worg cannot possibly make that CC, so no roll is made. This implies that monsters do NOT add their HD to saves, as it is possible (though unlikely) that it could roll a 24 (on 1d20+4).

[serleran]

Monsters add HD to their saves, unless there is a reason for them to not.
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[bighara]

The Pugilist wrote:
Edit: The confusion comes from the example of play at the end of the PHB. A 6th level character casts a spell on a 4th level monster (with physical saves). This makes the Challenge Class 24. According to the example, the Worg cannot possibly make that CC, so no roll is made. This implies that monsters do NOT add their HD to saves, as it is possible (though unlikely) that it could roll a 24 (on 1d20+4).

They do add their HD (as serleran points out above). You're absolutely right, though. The Worg could make its save (5% chance). The PHB description is wrong.

[cheeplives]

D'oh! That little bit of errata is my fault. I wrote the description and completely forgot about the HD to saves! We should make sure that gets fixed by 4th printing!
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[LordSeurek]

cheeplives wrote:
D'oh! That little bit of errata is my fault. I wrote the description and completely forgot about the HD to saves! We should make sure that gets fixed by 4th printing!

Break out the sticky-tabs
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[The Pugilist]

Thanks for the answers. Its a very simple and elegant way of determining saves (and BtH).