Twilight 2013

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:56 pm

Because I was a huge fan of Twilight 2000 and its expansion material, I went ahead and preordered the Twilight 2013 hardback. I just DLed the included PDF but haven't had time to give it a thorough read through yet. Anyone else preordered this? If you've given the PDF a read yet, any thoughts? I am a sucker for "realistic" military style combat action.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:44 pm

Played Twilight 20XX in the past, and loved the game. The newest version of the game intrigues me but frankly I just don't ever think I'll have time to play or run it. Also, sometimes the guys in our gaming group are a little to hard core military guys and the inevitable argument "that would never happen" comes up a lot.

Still, a great game though.

-Oh
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:48 pm

Omote wrote:
Played Twilight 20XX in the past, and loved the game. The newest version of the game intrigues me but frankly I just don't ever think I'll have time to play or run it. Also, sometimes the guys in our gaming group are a little to hard core military guys and the inevitable argument "that would never happen" comes up a lot.

Still, a great game though.

-Oh

Yeah I understand about the time issue. Im the most hardcore military gamer in my group so that shouldnt be an issue at least. It's very rules intensive at a glance, which may turn off some of my rules lite lovin' players but they've surprised me in the past so we will see.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:58 pm

Breakdaddy wrote:
It's very rules intensive at a glance, which may turn off some of my rules lite lovin' players...

One thing I will say, and not to dissuade any new players to play Twilight 2013, but as in the previous editions of the game, the rules are quite heavy. Do you still need a scientific calculator to play Twilight 2013?
-O
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:09 pm

Unknown at this time, but according to the developers, no. I will start a full reading tonight, but I wont absorb as much as I will when I get the full hardcover.

jamesmishler · Post by **jamesmishler** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:15 pm

My friends and I played the hell out of T2k back in the day. For a while it beat out even D&D in number of sessions per week (man, I miss having multiple gaming sessions per week... lucky to get multiple sessions per month anymore).

I've followed T2013 with some interest, so I'm very eager to see what you ahve to say about it, BD...
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:34 pm

jamesmishler wrote:
My friends and I played the hell out of T2k back in the day. For a while it beat out even D&D in number of sessions per week (man, I miss having multiple gaming sessions per week... lucky to get multiple sessions per month anymore).

I've followed T2013 with some interest, so I'm very eager to see what you ahve to say about it, BD...

Hey James, long time no hear from. Hope yer well. I will report back with whatever information my little brain can absorb.

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:39 pm

Ive been looking at it over lunch by the way and the first thing that strikes me is that there isnt a lot of troop deployment and unit strength data. This is by design according to the authors, to facilitate the GMs ability to make the setting his own. I kind of miss the old edition's attention to detail on these points but see the new author's point.

CKDad · Post by **CKDad** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:09 pm

Interesting - played around a bit with T2K when it first came out. I was still in the Army and recall getting the S2 guys to pull a couple maps of Poland to expand our play area.

I agree that one of the charms of the original was how well it captured the overall feel of a military unit of the era. I'd rather see it included, especially as Things Have Changed since my days in green.

In any case, hope it turns out well!

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:58 pm

Messed around with 2300...played more Traveller:2300 than Twilight though. Be interested to see what folks have to say about the 2013 version.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:20 pm

My understanding is there are 3 levels of difficulty built into the rules set. Could you take a look at that aspect and see if you think they pulled it off?
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:00 pm

Treebore wrote:
My understanding is there are 3 levels of difficulty built into the rules set. Could you take a look at that aspect and see if you think they pulled it off?

I will definitely look in to it and let you know what I find

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:30 pm

OK looking at character generation. Stage III chargen (the hardest level) includes such minutiae like the characters physique (slight, athletic, etc.) and a complex carrying capacity rules system. Stage III chargen also includes a few more steps that will flesh the character out even more (stage II doesnt include advantages and disadvantages but does include skills, stage III includes all of this, including daily nutrition requirements to keep the character in top physical form). Character generation is not too different from Traveller in that you roll up "lifepaths" that eventually lead to your character ending up where he does when the balloon goes up. It should be noted that this isnt entirely different than the old Twilight 2000 character generation system but includes some more updated concepts. I'm having a hard time recalling the old twilight 2k chargen system in great detail, so forgive any errors. Stage II play is the default assumption of play in twilight 2013 and other rules that add complexity (Stage III) or reduce complexity (Stage I) are interspersed throughout the book.

Default play includes rules for Coolness Under Fire (CUF) and Observe-Orient-Decide-Act (OODA- how quickly a character can react to violent and/or unexpected events). Stage I strips the game of these rules making these roleplaying decisions rather than dice mechanics.

cinderblock · Post by **cinderblock** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:55 pm

Do you have a link for this? I love me some Twilight.

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:58 pm

cinderblock wrote:
Do you have a link for this? I love me some Twilight.

Roger link:
http://93gamesstudio.com/site/node/18

The preorder seems to be a good deal.

tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:28 am

Ah yes. Twighlight 2000. Never had a chance to play it. One of my friends owned the 2nd(?) edition boxed set back in the day. Intensive rules resulted in that being a wasted purchase. The idea seemed cool at least.

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:56 am

Dont miss the point though, tylermo. Twilight has always been a game with an eye towards simulationism. The perceived realism was high in the old 2.0 and 2.2 rules (for many). If you don't care about the simulationist bent of this type of game then you are almost guaranteed to not enjoy the game and its many nuanced rules. I will state for the record here: Twilight 2013 is a RULES HEAVY game, very unlike C&C. I like all types of games and appreciate military games that attempt to simulate the combat within reason and this is what attracted me to the Twilight series of games.

Fat Dragon Games · Post by **Fat Dragon Games** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:25 am

Breakdaddy wrote:
I like all types of games and appreciate military games that attempt to simulate the combat within reason and this is what attracted me to the Twilight series of games.

Ditto, 20 year ago the best times I had RPGing besides AD&D were with Twilight 2000. I'm not usually a fans of rule intensive RPGs, but T2K was the exception. For this subject it's the only way to go.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:33 am

Well, I just recently played Twilight 2000 for the first time ever, and I found it to be less rules heavy than 3E. Definitely more rules heavy than C&C. 2E D&D, with all the rules options, is more rules heavy than T2000.

Heck, I think L5R, a game I love, is more rules heavy than T2000.
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:09 am

Treebore wrote:
Well, I just recently played Twilight 2000 for the first time ever, and I found it to be less rules heavy than 3E. Definitely more rules heavy than C&C. 2E D&D, with all the rules options, is more rules heavy than T2000.

Heck, I think L5R, a game I love, is more rules heavy than T2000.

I was not trying to imply that it was more rules heavy than any other game than C&C but if we are to start naming games then I would say that your assessment of Twilight 2000 isnt far from mine. It's not Rolemasterian in its rules heaviness by any means. Twilight 2013 is shaping up as a different story when using Stage III rules, at least from what I've read thus far. I would say that the default Stage II rules are on par with the Twilight 2k V2 rules.

Fat Dragon Games · Post by **Fat Dragon Games** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:37 am

Breakdaddy wrote:
I was not trying to imply that it was more rules heavy than any other game than C&C but if we are to start naming games then I would say that your assessment of Twilight 2000 isnt far from mine. It's not Rolemasterian in its rules heaviness by any means. Twilight 2013 is shaping up as a different story when using Stage III rules, at least from what I've read thus far. I would say that the default Stage II rules are on par with the Twilight 2k V2 rules.

Bottom line it for me BD, as a fan of T2K 1E, is it worth it for me to pick up? Answer promptly or I shall do wicked things to you with duct tape.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:45 am

Twilight 2KX holds no flame to The Morrow Project on level of simulation, nor does it come remotely close to GURPS. Its a baby to both.
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cinderblock · Post by **cinderblock** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:19 am

Yellow book Twilight sucked (think that was 2nd ed? can't remember). The boxed set was awesome, had some really great games. We did use the source material from the later books though.

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:23 pm

serleran wrote:
Twilight 2KX holds no flame to The Morrow Project on level of simulation, nor does it come remotely close to GURPS. Its a baby to both.

Smoking crack is bad for you, Robert. You are wrong about GURPS as compares to Twilight 2k13. At least as pertains to GURPS 4e. Never heard of Morrow Project, so maybe. Now, if you are talking about Twilight 2000, I find it arguable unless you use optional rules from some of the excellent GURPS supplements and even then only if you dont use Merc2000 options. I would urge you to not mistake rules bloat for relevant rules that endeavor to simulate the action.

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:26 pm

Fat Dragon Games wrote:
Bottom line it for me BD, as a fan of T2K 1E, is it worth it for me to pick up? Answer promptly or I shall do wicked things to you with duct tape.

My moderately informed opinion is that yes, you should get it. There are a lot of typos (TLG style, adds character) and a few quirky rules but theyve stayed true to the spirit of the old ruleset and the background information is very interesting.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:29 pm

Did somebody just compare Twilight 20XX to GURPS? I'm assuming you are trying to compare complxity of the games... but GURPS?! Wow.

Give me paper, pencil and a scientific calculator over the schlock that GURPS is any day.

-O
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:44 pm

Omote wrote:
Did somebody just compare Twilight 20XX to GURPS? I'm assuming you are trying to compare complxity of the games... but GURPS?! Wow.

Give me paper, pencil and a scientific calculator over the schlock that GURPS is any day.

-O

You're the man now, dawg.

/Sean Connery

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:49 pm

[Sean Connery] SIT DOWN! [/Sean Connery]

-
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jaybird216 · Post by **jaybird216** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:08 pm

As a huge T:2k fan, Breakdaddy, I pre-ordered the game as well. Still kicking myself for not submitting artwork for it though.

The PDF is a little daunting at 384 pages, but I like what I've skimmed of it. I'll wait until the demolished nymph-house version shows up to actually attempt chargen or a play-though. I'm eagerly awaiting that day.

Myself, I loved all versions of the game. v1 was nice and crunchy, but v2 had the life paths and better option for civvie characters. From what I've read of 2013, it's the best of both worlds. It also seems to be intentionally geared towards making a character from anywhere in the world.

I am really looking forward to giving it some table time.
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:28 pm

jaybird216 wrote:
As a huge T:2k fan, Breakdaddy, I pre-ordered the game as well. Still kicking myself for not submitting artwork for it though.

The PDF is a little daunting at 384 pages, but I like what I've skimmed of it. I'll wait until the demolished nymph-house version shows up to actually attempt chargen or a play-though. I'm eagerly awaiting that day.

Myself, I loved all versions of the game. v1 was nice and crunchy, but v2 had the life paths and better option for civvie characters. From what I've read of 2013, it's the best of both worlds. It also seems to be intentionally geared towards making a character from anywhere in the world.

I am really looking forward to giving it some table time.

Agreed, I can't wait to get a game off of the ground. Twilight 2k was one of those games that made me want to read it cover to cover (and I did) and then start playing immediately. Few games have been as addictive to me.