I haven't really heard much about the modifications to the SIEGE Engine in StarSIEGE, and after playing C&C I'm very reluctant to go back to individual skills again, but I've heard talk of Skill Bundles, so what's the system behind those? Is it just a regular old skill system like other RPGs where you have to keep track of fiddly skill points and such or is it something different?
Also, How do wounds work? Are HP non-existant in SS?
What other major differences are there between C&C and StarSIEGE...?
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IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.
StarSIEGE: How has the SIEGE Engine been changed...?
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cheeplives
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The SIEGE Engine hasn't really been changed, it's been expanded for SSEH. SSEH uses the SIEGE Engine for all checks, including combat, thus standardizing the system.
Skill Bundles are broad categories of expertise. They are similar to C&C's approach of Prime Attributes, but it divorces them from attributes and instead makes them more specific and thus easier to decode. In SSEH, Athletics is a Skill Bundle, thus taking the guess-work if a particular physical action should fall under a Dexterity, Constitution, or Strength Skill Check in C&C.
There are 9 Skill Bundles: Athletics, Awareness, Combat, Environmental, Handling, Lore, Mechanics, Persuasion, and Spiritual. In many ways, these cover the basic classes and abilities you find in C&C, but they are generalized. Most characters can choose to have a Profession which provides a list of Skill Bundles to choose (for example, an Engineer might have the choice of Handling, Lore, and Mechanics).
The default system uses Specialties to track a character's individual abilities. These are effectively skills like you find in traditional Skill-based systems. You can have levels in Detection, Melee Combat, or Survival. It is handled with a simple XP-point buy system and there aren''t a lot of numbers to juggle (starting characters get 10 XP to build out characters, with each +1 costing 1 XP).
There is also an optional rule to remove Specialties and just use a Competence Score. This is tied to the character's chosen Profession and works as Experience Level does in C&C: you add it to any rolls that fall under your Profession.
As far as the Wound Track system.. it's basically a simplified Hit Point mechanic. Everyone gets 4 Wounds and 3 "Critical Wounds" (Disabled, Down, and Out). Weapons do fixed damage (starting at one wound for most weapons all the way up to automatically dealing a one or more Critical Wounds--there is an optional rule for dealing additional damage according to success on the attack roll). Damage marks off Wound Boxes, once a character is in their "Critical Wounds" they suffer penalties or are completely disabled/removed from play.
There is also a Stress Track, which serves as the character's mental health monitor (similar to Sanity from Call of Cthulhu). Weapons, psionics, or other attacks can target a character's Stress Track and a character can be disabled in this way just as easily as they can via Wounds.
Of course, since it's SSEH, there's also optinal rules for putting HP into the game as well, so you can have your cake and eat it too!
Other major differences? The whole of the game is a departure, but I did my best to put enough optional rules in that you could almost re-create C&C. The removal of AC (but a similar concept exists in Defense Scores), and Classes (which can be somewhat modeled in the Professions) are big departures, as well as removal of Saves and the standardization of the SEIGE Engine for all rolls.
The system also uses a numerical Size chart that is exponential in scale to allow for scalings (i.e. a Size 11 item is up to twice the size of a Size 10 item) of large and small items. The base attributes have also changed into a 2 Physical (Physique and Reflexes), 2 Mental (Knowledge and Savvy), and 2 Emotional (Confidence and Empathy) in order to allow for more breadth of character concepts (the C&C attributes can be subbed in with no real issues, though).
There are also lots of mechanics, like Nova Points, which allow for dramatic editing or the Fashioning Trappings mechanic that lets you build any Item, Special Ability, Psionic Power, or Alien Race using the same system. There are also rules for statting out planetary systems as if they were characters (albeit with different "Attributes" as well as Industries in place of Skill Bundles). There is even a Planetary Conflict mechanic that allows for planets to attack one another, annex property, or even completely take one another over. There are guidelines for how the PC's actions might influence these large scale battles, too.
In all, SSEH is a departure from C&C, but one that, in my opinion, still stays true to the concepts of C&C. The mechanic will be familiar while some of the implementations might seem odd. There are a host of examples of optional rules to allow groups to customize the tool-kit to their liking.
Many of the departures exist because I felt Sci-fi needed to be handled differently from fantasy. Some people might have preferred "C&C in Space" but I felt that science fiction had different assumptions and genre needs. As such, you'll find a game that is similar, but not just a carbon copy.
Does that help?
_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.
Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!
Skill Bundles are broad categories of expertise. They are similar to C&C's approach of Prime Attributes, but it divorces them from attributes and instead makes them more specific and thus easier to decode. In SSEH, Athletics is a Skill Bundle, thus taking the guess-work if a particular physical action should fall under a Dexterity, Constitution, or Strength Skill Check in C&C.
There are 9 Skill Bundles: Athletics, Awareness, Combat, Environmental, Handling, Lore, Mechanics, Persuasion, and Spiritual. In many ways, these cover the basic classes and abilities you find in C&C, but they are generalized. Most characters can choose to have a Profession which provides a list of Skill Bundles to choose (for example, an Engineer might have the choice of Handling, Lore, and Mechanics).
The default system uses Specialties to track a character's individual abilities. These are effectively skills like you find in traditional Skill-based systems. You can have levels in Detection, Melee Combat, or Survival. It is handled with a simple XP-point buy system and there aren''t a lot of numbers to juggle (starting characters get 10 XP to build out characters, with each +1 costing 1 XP).
There is also an optional rule to remove Specialties and just use a Competence Score. This is tied to the character's chosen Profession and works as Experience Level does in C&C: you add it to any rolls that fall under your Profession.
As far as the Wound Track system.. it's basically a simplified Hit Point mechanic. Everyone gets 4 Wounds and 3 "Critical Wounds" (Disabled, Down, and Out). Weapons do fixed damage (starting at one wound for most weapons all the way up to automatically dealing a one or more Critical Wounds--there is an optional rule for dealing additional damage according to success on the attack roll). Damage marks off Wound Boxes, once a character is in their "Critical Wounds" they suffer penalties or are completely disabled/removed from play.
There is also a Stress Track, which serves as the character's mental health monitor (similar to Sanity from Call of Cthulhu). Weapons, psionics, or other attacks can target a character's Stress Track and a character can be disabled in this way just as easily as they can via Wounds.
Of course, since it's SSEH, there's also optinal rules for putting HP into the game as well, so you can have your cake and eat it too!
Other major differences? The whole of the game is a departure, but I did my best to put enough optional rules in that you could almost re-create C&C. The removal of AC (but a similar concept exists in Defense Scores), and Classes (which can be somewhat modeled in the Professions) are big departures, as well as removal of Saves and the standardization of the SEIGE Engine for all rolls.
The system also uses a numerical Size chart that is exponential in scale to allow for scalings (i.e. a Size 11 item is up to twice the size of a Size 10 item) of large and small items. The base attributes have also changed into a 2 Physical (Physique and Reflexes), 2 Mental (Knowledge and Savvy), and 2 Emotional (Confidence and Empathy) in order to allow for more breadth of character concepts (the C&C attributes can be subbed in with no real issues, though).
There are also lots of mechanics, like Nova Points, which allow for dramatic editing or the Fashioning Trappings mechanic that lets you build any Item, Special Ability, Psionic Power, or Alien Race using the same system. There are also rules for statting out planetary systems as if they were characters (albeit with different "Attributes" as well as Industries in place of Skill Bundles). There is even a Planetary Conflict mechanic that allows for planets to attack one another, annex property, or even completely take one another over. There are guidelines for how the PC's actions might influence these large scale battles, too.
In all, SSEH is a departure from C&C, but one that, in my opinion, still stays true to the concepts of C&C. The mechanic will be familiar while some of the implementations might seem odd. There are a host of examples of optional rules to allow groups to customize the tool-kit to their liking.
Many of the departures exist because I felt Sci-fi needed to be handled differently from fantasy. Some people might have preferred "C&C in Space" but I felt that science fiction had different assumptions and genre needs. As such, you'll find a game that is similar, but not just a carbon copy.
Does that help?
_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.
Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!
discreteinfinity.com -- my respite from the bustle of the internet
Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon
Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon
The main difference in the SIEGE Engine in StarSIEGE is that primes are assigned to skill bundles rather than attributes. Skill bundles are broad areas of expertise such as Combat, Mechanics, Lore, etc. So, the main difference would be that in C&C you may have Strength as a prime, but in SS you would pick Combat, let's say.
That being said, skill specialties do exist in the game, but aren't necessary. They generally equate to a + modifier to a SIEGE check. For instance, you may have the Combat skill bundle as a prime, but are specialized in Shooting. In that case you would get a bonus to any Combat SIEGE rolls that involved shooting a weapon. There are optional rules to ignore these completely and give the character something called a Competence score, which is very similar to Class Level in C&C. In that case, you would add the Competence score to SIEGE rolls rather than a skill specialization bonus.
All in all, the SIEGE Engine is basically the same with the main difference between the philosophy of tying primes to skill bundles rather than to attributes. Otherwise, the 12/18 mechanics and everything are the same.
_________________
Rusty
That being said, skill specialties do exist in the game, but aren't necessary. They generally equate to a + modifier to a SIEGE check. For instance, you may have the Combat skill bundle as a prime, but are specialized in Shooting. In that case you would get a bonus to any Combat SIEGE rolls that involved shooting a weapon. There are optional rules to ignore these completely and give the character something called a Competence score, which is very similar to Class Level in C&C. In that case, you would add the Competence score to SIEGE rolls rather than a skill specialization bonus.
All in all, the SIEGE Engine is basically the same with the main difference between the philosophy of tying primes to skill bundles rather than to attributes. Otherwise, the 12/18 mechanics and everything are the same.
_________________
Rusty
Well, if there is an option for just using the skill bundles themselves (especially considering the lack of classes) without the need for specializations, then I'm cool with that. I just don't want to ever go back to a system that requires the juggling of skill points.
I asked because I was wondering just how easy it would be to port the Serenity RPG material over to StarSIEGE. The Serenity rules are alright, but I've grown weary of systems with Skills, Advantages, Disadvantages, etc. etc. As I play more C&C I want a more freeform game where background is more important than the number of points you put in skill x and whether trait y adds to that or disadvantage z takes away from it and trying to remember all this crap in the middle of the game.
And that's the crux of it. My brain is gettign older and there is a lot more important info to cram into it (technology does not rest) than endlessly complex game systems...
_________________
IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.
I asked because I was wondering just how easy it would be to port the Serenity RPG material over to StarSIEGE. The Serenity rules are alright, but I've grown weary of systems with Skills, Advantages, Disadvantages, etc. etc. As I play more C&C I want a more freeform game where background is more important than the number of points you put in skill x and whether trait y adds to that or disadvantage z takes away from it and trying to remember all this crap in the middle of the game.
And that's the crux of it. My brain is gettign older and there is a lot more important info to cram into it (technology does not rest) than endlessly complex game systems...
_________________
IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.
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cheeplives
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Luther wrote:
Well, if there is an option for just using the skill bundles themselves (especially considering the lack of classes) without the need for specializations, then I'm cool with that. I just don't want to ever go back to a system that requires the juggling of skill points.
Then the Competence Score is just what you wanted. For 9 XP you can buy a +1 to your Competence (note that a "starting character" automatically has 10 XP, so that's a +1 Competence and 1 XP towards "level two").
The Compentence Score makes Professions more integral to the game, since you add the score to any activities the SIEGE Engineer feels falls under your Profession (just like C&C does with classes).
_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.
Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!
discreteinfinity.com -- my respite from the bustle of the internet
Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon
Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon
I look at the skill bundles as being your class abilities. No different in how they are treated, really. Especially since I treat class skills as Prime anyways in my C&C games.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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cheeplives
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Treebore wrote:
I look at the skill bundles as being your class abilities. No different in how they are treated, really. Especially since I treat class skills as Prime anyways in my C&C games.
This was originally how I mapped the Skill Bundles... I just went through all the C&C Classes and tried to distill down their abilities into broad groups.
_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.
Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!
discreteinfinity.com -- my respite from the bustle of the internet
Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon
Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon