Humans and 3 Primes too powerful?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:12 pm

This was a random statement Serl threw into one of his posts, and it got me to wondering.

Do CK's think humans are too powerful?

I can see the argument, and agree with it some what.

However I think a lot of the racial abilities are pretty powerful, especially the vision. If the vision conditions are enforced there are a number of times/situations where humans fight blind and the racial characters do not.

So making the assumption that all rules are enforced, and therefore followed, I personally think that the third Prime is actually an excellent way to balance out the human against the other races.

So do you agree? IF so, do you have different reasons for agreeing?

Do you disagree? IF so please share why.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:04 pm

I'd say no, I think it balances out the demi-human racial abilities fairly well.
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CKDad · Post by **CKDad** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:15 pm

I disagree for exactly the reasons you mention: racial abilities, particularly vision. Maybe it's not the best balancing arrangement, but it's in keeping with the rest of the C&C "KISS" philosophy.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:32 pm

The human third Prime can be easily construed as being too powerful, but, in my experience, many players prefer non-humans because the abilities they possess are more interesting... I know, for example, that my wife prefers non-humans because humans "suck" in dungeons (where we typically adventure): they can't see in the dark, they can't smell or hear anything coming (unless its obvious), can't find a secret door without looking, and looking hard, and a lot of other things like not being all empathic with rodents.So, I would not say that it is too powerful, but it certainly does make playing a "complex" class much easier.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:37 pm

I don't think humans are too powerful with three primes. The 3rd Edition D&D and the C&C PHB touch o the fact that human are highly adaptable, quick to master things, and are versatile and capable creatures. I think that this is a perfect description of humans and in game terms works great (and did so with 3e, too).

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:30 pm

What if humans got 2 primes (like every other player race) and an extra +1 to all ability checks? It would be the equivalent of an extra prime (+6 to one ability's checks) but, obviously, more spread out.

Saarlander · Post by **Saarlander** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:33 pm

All right, i'm bringing up an oooooold post here, but browsing the forums, it just caught my attention.

I would they no, not too powerful... but powerful indeed.

And as a now active CK, i used this story-wise from the start on when i made up my (mostly human ruled) setting.

3 Primes may look powerful if you take the Human as the "default" race, and i couldn't.

Every other PC race from the PHB has not only abilities, but a distinct aura and flavor because these abilities are always worked in the background and depiction of that race, in-game terms speaking....

Why wouldn't Humans ?! In my setting, i made this clear to the players from the start (i have only one Human on a team of 4 PCs right now):

Humans are not "adaptable and skilled"... even the Elder races are trully fascinated because "Humans glow and burn, and for such short lived creatures, are so unique, not only aiming for the impossible, but actually able to achieve it more often than not. Their living flame is like no other, and no two humans are alike !"

Of course, Humans also have a thousands true reasons to feel fascinated, intrigued, or even repulsed sometimes, by all the other races, but it all goes both ways.

So having 3 Primes is extremely powerful, i agree... but it's exactly what Humans are, along with all the others.

As a final word, i would recommend watching a few episodes from the "Doctor Who" series, when the Doctor (a 900 years old supra genius alien) talks about Humans, what they are to him, why he loves them, and why he even feels sometimes inferior to them...

(Actually, i always thought the Doctor, especially Eccleston's and Tennant's take on the character, is great inspiration on how to roleplay an Elf anyway... but that's just me, then... )
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:37 pm

Treebore wrote:
However I think a lot of the racial abilities are pretty powerful, especially the vision. If the vision conditions are enforced there are a number of times/situations where humans fight blind and the racial characters do not.
So making the assumption that all rules are enforced

I find the vision rules run a close second to encumberance in "rules most likely not followed by anyone at the table" category.
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Saarlander · Post by **Saarlander** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:49 pm

Quote:
I find the vision rules run a close second to encumberance in "rules most likely not followed by anyone at the table" category.

Ha, then I am your exception here !
Although we actually don't bother with actually measuring the exact vision ranges everytime, the different C&C visions (actually so much more sense in Twilight/Dusk/Dark vision than the older "i see infrared" and akin bulls**t) play a great role in our gaming.

I love to bring the dark down on PCs from time to time, and having them running as they can on slippery cliffs during a stormy night BEHIND the only character actually able to see anything at all is now a nice memory for my players...

I use visions from the start on when i describe my whole sceneries to my players, telling them only what they can actually see, and it's great part of the atmosphere i'm trying to make up, every time. And my players quickly learned to play with it, alternatively using torches, sending the Half-Orc or the Dwarf out to scout sometimes even if they are otherwise not the best fitted for it... or waiting till dawn if they have to.

In medieval tales, even fantasy, night and darkness are no friends of men, and this also enforces the heavy advantage of fantasy races in my game.
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Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:13 pm

I think the races are well-balanced with humans getting 3 primes.

I also chuck the various classes of vision adopted by C&C out the window in favor of straight infravision (and its associated BS).

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:51 pm

Saarlander wrote:
(Actually, i always thought the Doctor, especially Eccleston's and Tennant's take on the character, is great inspiration on how to roleplay an Elf anyway... but that's just me, then... )

Tom Baker was the elf king in the D&D movie

Saarlander · Post by **Saarlander** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:25 am

Quote:
Tom Baker was the elf king in the D&D movie

Nope. Can't have been. There never was a D&D movie.

Sigh.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:38 am

Try as you might, Saarlander, you cannot deny the greatness that is the D&D movies!
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Coleston the Cavalier · Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:53 am

I voted no, but I have always thought that demi-humans, without level limits can be far too powerful.
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:49 am

Only if you equate sameness with equality.

It is a given in the generic role playing fantasy game that humans are the dominant species that inherits the world from elder races.

How can they be prtrayed as dominat if there is no mechanic that reflects that?

I think we make the mistake of taking todays mistaken political views, values, and ethics and applying them to fantasy all too often.
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Benoist · Post by **Benoist** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:10 am

If that encourages players to play humans instead of going for the elf just because "it's cool", so much the better, in my opinion.

Now, that said, I don't think 3 primes is too powerful. Remember that a big part of the game's "balance" comes from the actual game play (which means the CK rulings, the adventure's set-up and unfolding, the understanding/cooperation between players and CKs and between players themselves, among others).

The rules' "balance" is one thing. The game's another. Remember there is a game outside the pages of a rule book.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:57 pm

Joe wrote:
Only if you equate sameness with equality.

It is a given in the generic role playing fantasy game that humans are the dominant species that inherits the world from elder races.

How can they be prtrayed as dominat if there is no mechanic that reflects that?

I think we make the mistake of taking todays mistaken political views, values, and ethics and applying them to fantasy all too often.

They're only going to dominatehalf the time approximately. The other half,at night, they won't.
Vampires will.
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Arazmus · Post by **Arazmus** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:43 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
I find the vision rules run a close second to encumberance in "rules most likely not followed by anyone at the table" category.

I used to ignore encumberance rules a lot, then one day at work a box opened up, the manifest stated 2000 1" discs, aluminum, copper washed. They were about a milimeter thick and the box, when we repacked it, weighed in the neighborhood of 60lbs. That's when I, and the guy working for me who helped repack the box...also a gamer, determined that NO ONE is walking around with 2000 aluminum pieces on their person much less 2000gp. Do I use the rules to the letter? No, but I do keep track of encumberance.
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BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:18 pm

Well, I think that it depends on the class. If you're playing a fighter, then it isn't all that powerful, as primes make little difference. If you're playing a rogue or ranger, the wrong race choice is the same as cutting your character's own foot off with a hacksaw.

However, the simplest solution to this- is I treat *all class abilities* as if the character's stat were Prime. This makes it so you can choose to play a Rogue with Charisma Prime (for saves, charming the wench, etc) without the other players getting annoyed at you when you trigger a trap on them (for the third time) because you didn't make INT your prime.

I think you also get more *flavorful* characters this way, since the choice of prime has more to do with your own choices of how you see the character rather than optimization.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:00 pm

Quote:
However, the simplest solution to this- is I treat *all class abilities* as if the character's stat were Prime.

This actually makes non-humans better, especially if they take a class with several Primes like Ranger or Rogue, because it lets them have Prime in non-class attributes and still function completely normally as their class, thereby making them even more flexible. You're essentially, giving them free Primes that don't affect saves.

But, this argument is old. If you find it works well for your game, great. I would imagine to see a lot more non-humans in the game, and probably a lot more multi-Prime classes.
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Arazmus · Post by **Arazmus** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:33 pm

B-A-L-A-N-C-E Balance.....
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Post by **Fiffergrund** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:53 pm

serleran wrote:
This actually makes non-humans better, especially if they take a class with several Primes like Ranger or Rogue, because it lets them have Prime in non-class attributes and still function completely normally as their class, thereby making them even more flexible. You're essentially, giving them free Primes that don't affect saves.

But, this argument is old. If you find it works well for your game, great. I would imagine to see a lot more non-humans in the game, and probably a lot more multi-Prime classes.

Yep - the intent was specifically to make humans the most versatile race. Therefore, they make the best rangers and rogues. That's not to say an elf rogue can't be great, but there's a natural limitation that goes along with great vision/hearing capabilities and natural bow/sword aptitude. To get those kewl abilities by playing an elf, a player has to choose to be less skilled at something.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:35 am

serleran wrote:
This actually makes non-humans better, especially if they take a class with several Primes like Ranger or Rogue, because it lets them have Prime in non-class attributes and still function completely normally as their class, thereby making them even more flexible. You're essentially, giving them free Primes that don't affect saves.

But, this argument is old. If you find it works well for your game, great. I would imagine to see a lot more non-humans in the game, and probably a lot more multi-Prime classes.

I agree, serl. I once thought to have non-Prime class abilities work off a CB of 15. That would make it at least bearable, I thought, for non-human races, and their two primes (but of course, it would apply to humans, too).

But the more I thought about this, the more I didn't like it. Like Fiff said - humans are supposed to be the most versitile race. Having an extra Prime is what balances them against the other races (and I do believe this) but also reflects the versatility of man. On average, elven rangers are more dextrous, better with bows and swords, moving silently, and finding traps in addition to other facets not directly related to the ranger class...just by being an elf. So, I think it makes good balance to allow humans to master one additional physical or mental realm.

Of course, I allow a choice of Primes based on class (each class has a number of primes associated with them according to the attributes that their class abilities work off of), which helps demi-humans in case there is any incidential "issues." The demi-human ranger is a special case to me, simply becase, BtB, there is a perceived issue with Strength as a Prime and it's non-relevance concerning class abilities. thus, every class has a few different choices for its "mandatory Prime."
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Humans and 3 Primes too powerful?

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