d20 DCs and SIEGE [Shackled City]

[Laslo Tremaine]

Okay, new guy here. Completely burned out on D&D 3.5 with it's ponderous battles and horrendous prep time. I am looking to C&C to give me a more streamlined play experience, and am planning on running Shackled City using this system.

I should probably state C&C seems to be a bit too old-school for my tastes, but it looks like is should still work for my purposes.

That being said, I have some questions about using the SIEGE engine with a d20 module.

So, from what I can tell, the target number to be rolled is 18 (12 if the stat is Prime) plus a number ranging from 1-20 depending on difficulty.

Can anyone see any problem with just using d20 DC levels with the player adding their character level and then +5 if the stat is Prime?

The reason that I would want to do this is that the Shackled City adventure path already has many DCs listed.

For example. If a lock has a DC 25, then a 5th level Rogue would roll d20 + lvl (5) + stat bonus (let's say 2) + prime bonus (5) for a total of +12 to the roll. That would give a 40% chance of success (average roll of 11 for a total of 23).

To contrast this, a 5th level D&D 3.5 Rogue would have an average Pick Lock skill of roughly +12 (assuming maxed out skill points [8] and a Dex bonus of +4).

Does anyone see any problems with this? Can someone speak from experience with running d20 modules using C&C?

[serleran]

Or, you can just use the DC / 3 = difficulty. This way, a 25 DC is an 8 difficulty, making it a d20 + stat modifier + level + other bonuses (magic items, tools, circumstances) >= 12 or 18 + 8.

[moriarty777]

Shouldn't be a problem... there are certain CK's that use a 10 - 15 base instead of the 12 - 18 (if I understand your question correctly). I think the important point to keep in mind is ensuring that the changes are consistant with all aspects of the game.

Moriarty the Red
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[Emryys]

serleran wrote:
Or, you can just use the DC / 3 = difficulty. This way, a 25 DC is an 8 difficulty, making it a d20 + stat modifier + level + other bonuses (magic items, tools, circumstances) >= 12 or 18 + 8.

Is the DC / 3 a standard formula that can work in most situations?

If so, this would be really handy...
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[serleran]

Should work for every non-monster/spell DC, like traps, hazards, door breaking, listening, and whatnot. For example, a DC of 50 in d20 would be "Epic" by definition, and would then mean a difficulty of 16 in C&C, which is a damn hard challenge. Of course, DCs in the 100s would just be impossible in C&C, unless you're very lenient on character ability.

[Emryys]

serleran wrote:
Should work for every non-monster/spell DC, like traps, hazards, door breaking, listening, and whatnot.

Excellent!

Mosters are the HD and spells the level... so most are covered then, yes?

This will be handy for conversions and could be combined with the info in the Goodman games thread....
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[johns]

I've run a couple d20 adventures with C&C, and usually use the formula of D&D DC - 15 = C&C CL. Any DC that is less than 15 I just make an automatic success unless common sense dictates otherwise, in which case I make it a CL of 0.

[serleran]

Yeah, monster = HD, and spell = caster's level (though an interesting aside would be to make it = HD, too, meaning it caps at 10 or so) or for innate spell-abilities of monsters = HD.

[Jynx]

I've run several Eberron 3.5 Adventures using C&C. I started by subtracting 15 to get a Challenge level then added that to the base of either 12 or 18, but then I simplified my life and basically added 3 to any DC (which works out the the same thing as subtractng 15), or if I'm feeling extra nice, just leave it as is! I then tell my players to remember to add their +6 if they are using a Prime (which is the difference from the Prime 12 and non prime 18 base target number)

I analyzed my method versus that of Serleran and this is what I see for a 5th level rogue picking a lock with a Dex of 18 and in D&D max Skills on open lock...

My method seems to be closer to the intended target set in the D&D adventures, so I use it and it's simple - Just add3! It's been flawless so far.

You could add 1, 2 or like I said, leave it alone and all is well.

The most important thing to keep in mind when running D&D 3.5 adventures, is to avoid superfluous DC checks such as those pesky SENSE MOTIVE checks (urgh... I hate them!). I prefer to let my players Role Play as much as possible. If they fail at that, then maybe... just maybe I'll do a skill check of some sort to see how much they get out of whatever situation they are in.

If you want the spread sheet to play around with, then download it at...
http://rpgmtl.com:8080/download

and download http://rpgmtl.com:8080/download/DC_to_CC.xls

If you are prompted with a user ID & password then just hit cancel

[Tadhg]

Laslo Tremaine wrote:
Okay, new guy here.

Hello Laslo and welcome. I better get my greetings post in before this thread get too technical! [It's just me, I can't keep too many thoughts going at this late hour! ]
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[serleran]

Thanks for pointing out how easy it is in D&D for characters to overcome obstacles that are supposed to be above their level. The Jynx method works great if you want to emulate D&D d20, but mine works great if one wishes to retain "challenge." Really about "flavor and feel" than anything. I prefer harder. Others might not. So, having different ways to get to the same thing (fun) is a-ok to me.

[Jynx]

serleran wrote:
Thanks for pointing out how easy it is in D&D for characters to overcome obstacles that are supposed to be above their level. The Jynx method works great if you want to emulate D&D d20, but mine works great if one wishes to retain "challenge." Really about "flavor and feel" than anything. I prefer harder. Others might not. So, having different ways to get to the same thing (fun) is a-ok to me.

I don't see your point... then again it's really late. If one is trying to convert a D20 module, then either way will work but personally I think my method works best. I don't see how your method makes it any more difficult to accomplish the task as compared to mine.

Let me use your earlier example of a DC 50 being a CL of 16 in C&C. If the DC is 50 in D&D then it is basically impossible for a 5th level rogue to pick a DC 50 lock. He has an open lock of 8 and a Dex of 4 so he gets an automatic 12 to his roll. Even if he rolls a 20 he still can't beat the DC 50.

Your method (if I understand it correctly) suggests that the TARGET NUMBER is 12 + 16 = 28. So with that the rogue gets to add his level of 5, and his Dex bonus of 3 giving him a total of 8. So all he needs to roll is a 20 and he's got the lock opened!

[serleran]

Look at your columns "% Success." That is my point.

Also, I didn't say anything was wrong with your method, or that mine was better. I prefer mine, as you prefer yours. Both work, essentially, but the lower spectrums are far easier in your proposal than mine... with the high-end results being equally non-viable.

[Jynx]

serleran wrote:
Look at your columns "% Success." That is my point.

It's true that the lower the DC, the easier it is to succeed as compared to the divide by 3 method, but on the other end of the spectrum, the reverse is true. The higher the DC, the harder, if not even IMPOSSIBLE the chance to succeed.

Personal preference I guess....

[Emryys]

Useful stuff, even just for the comparisons!
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[rabindranath72]

If one wants to formally retain the same basic probability as for 3.x, (calculated at first level, in the hypothesis that the skill is a class skill, and that maximum ranks have been assigned), then subtracting 15 is the "correct" way to go.

One should then decide what to do for DCs less than 15. Either automatic success, or considering negative CL.

Personally, I use the "subtract 15" method to convert, and if the task is tied to a Prime, negative CLs give automatic success, otherwise I ask for a very easy check at negative CL.

Cheers,

Antonio

[Jynx]

If the task at hand requires a skill check, then to me, that assumes that there is always a chance of failure. If however, I rule it to be an automatic success for a character, then why bother with the dice? That's my approach. So I therefore use Negative CLs when ever it is appropriate.

Ex 1...

A skilled thief finds a simple pad lock of some sort. It's ancient and rusty and simple at best. However, no matter how skilled a thief is, even at level 12 or 20, he can still have a bad day and have his picks slip or break or whatever. Maybe the bad roll means that the lock mechanism jammed due to years of rust.

Ex 2...

Given the same thief, same lock, but brand new. With a lock as simple as that, I wouldn't bother a roll.

Ex 3...

Again... same thief, same lock but new, however he's standing in knee deep muddy waters while his companions fight off a purple worm or some such monster. The distraction alone is enough for him to misjudge and perhaps break his pick. Maybe the light is casting iregular shadows, further hampering the chances.

Once again, a matter of opinion and circumstance, but these are examples of how I use negative CLs / or LOW DCs/TNs.

[kelro]

** Shackled City spoiler (maybe?) **

I am currently running Shackled City using C&C. We are on chapter 2 at the moment.

I have just been using the formula CL = DC - 15. It has worked just fine, no problems at all. It makes a number of the locks very very difficult to open in chapter 1, but that is more because there DC is some crazy number like 30 to begin with. Like the gear doors are a good example, due to there difficulty to pick the lock the keys become are important to find. That is the only example that stands out in my memory where the CL was just crazy difficult, but to be honest, that is because the DC was already crazy diffficult.

Laslo, I have conversion notes and such written up for my game. If you would like to ever compare notes, feel free to PM me.

[Laslo Tremaine]

Wow!

Great info everyone. Very helpful!

I'm going to run a short d20 1st level adventure just so everyone can get a feel for the game before we plunge into the Shackled City.

Right now I will try both "the subtract 15 from the DC" method, and my "roll, and add level plus 5 if prime" method.

We'll see how things work.

Kelro, how much actuall conversion have you had to do. I've been planning on just doing most things on the fly (except for massaging the character advancement rates).

[kelro]

Before the actual game I convert the monsters, and do a scan of the text for any items that might be a problem (like mithril shirts, alchemical items like tanglefoot bags, spell effects, etc.). I also like to note the magic items being used in the adventure and there value in 3.5 since I am using the magic item pricing in 3.5 versus the system presented in Monsters & Treasure.

I calculate the CL on the fly, since I just do the -15 method.

[Jynx]

kelro wrote:
Before the actual game I convert the monsters

I'm curious how you would do this?

[kelro]

For the most part its easy, here is a post on the subject at the DCC forums, http://www.goodmangames.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=785. I thought there was another post on the same forum about this topic, but now I cant find it. Also, greyelf (sp?) has a simple lil doc out there about conversion.

I drop feats and skills, I havent needed them so far. And then from there I have to wing it basically (for like special abilities or spell effects that arent covered in C&C).

I just do it before the game because I am not so great at figuring it out on the fly. My brain works better when it has more time to think.

If you want some examples send me a PM.

[Jason Vey]

I deal with this in my d20 conversion guidelines. I generally assume that the DC in question is figured off of a Prime attribute, i.e. I subtract 12 from the DC. The resulting number becomes the CC of the task at hand. If CC < 0, then the negative becomes instead a bonus to the task check.

[PeelSeel2]

Lets settle this a proper way! Jynx and Serleran will grab shortswords and go into the Thunderdome. Two men enter, one man leaves. That is the way of justice!!
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[Jynx]

PeelSeel2 wrote:
Lets settle this a proper way! Jynx and Serleran will grab shortswords and go into the Thunderdome. Two men enter, one man leaves. That is the way of justice!!

HAHA!

The odds are in my favour if we use my system! LOL! Unless serleran keeps rolling 20s!

NAH!

It's all good.

Both methods work just fine and I respect his opinions. C&C is afterall, very much flexible to do just about any house rule we want - right?

later!

Jynx

[PeelSeel2]

I am glad both of you put your methods up. Is it just coincidence that about the time I was looking at some goodman games modules and thinking about how to convert DC's to CC's this thread comes up?!?

Yet further evidence of The Elder Geek Hive Mind. As an aside, astronomers think they have indirect evidence of their dark matter theory.....
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