Converting AD&D Monsters without Hit Dice

Melkor · Post by **Melkor** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:05 pm

So I was looking through Dieties & Demigods last night, and noticed that several of the dieties didn't list Hit Dice, only Hit Points.

Now I am not planning on having any C&C characters fight a diety anytime soon, but it did pose the question of how to handle converting creatures with no Hit Dice over to C&C.

Since Hit Dice in AD&D were based on an 8-sided die, I'm assuming you could just divide the hit points by the average roll of an 8-sided die to get some approximation.

How would you folks handle this ?

meepo · Post by **meepo** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:08 pm

That's exactly the way I was thinking, divide by 4.5 and round up/down.

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:20 pm

Just leave the hitpoints completely intact in the conversion, and watch the feathers fly

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:23 pm

If you must have exact figures for something like a god... divide by 6.5, and not 4.5. Why? Gods don't have d8s in C&C... as they are extraplanar powerful creatures and those have d12s. For example, a creature with 260 HP would have 40 HD.

Some creatures (non-Gods) could have their HP reduced before division, but whatever is used to divide should be the average for the die type... which is not always 4.5.

Scurvy_Platypus · Post by **Scurvy_Platypus** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:41 pm

http://www.geocities.com/cnctraveller/other.html

At the address listed above, is a document called Immortal Conversion Codex. The purpose is offer some guidelines for converting Immortals over to the "classic D&D" system using the Rules Cyclopedia.

Inside it suggests the following for HD: Average all the levels and classes an Immortal possesses, add 15 to that number, and then round to the nearest whole number.

Not sure just how useful it'll be, but maybe it'll help.

Of course if you happen to be lucky (like I am ) you could always simply rebuild them using the system from The Primal Order. At one time I had done that, but I'm not sure where the document is now. All else fails, I can always do it again since I've still got my books.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:22 pm

That document worked for me to do what wasn't recommended: converting AD&D deities over to Rules Cyclopedia D&D. However, I don't recommend using the Codex to do the hit dice conversion as it was specifically intended for AD&D to D&D only, D&D in Wrath of the Immortals uniformly having higher numbers. Plus it doesn't solve the issue of people believing gods are somehow killable (they're not).

The Codex won't help if the creature being converted doesn't have levels. I've got a quick and dirty chart for y'all for hit dice, based upon the creature's size. This is based on a chart I made up for a forthcoming project (which is nearly complete).

[quote]Code:

d6, d8, and d10 die types correspond to S, M, and L in the AD&D books. If a size in feet is given, use that instead. Some creatures are given multiple dimensions. Use the largest dimension in determining the size. Other creatures are given a range of sizes in feet. For those creatures, pick what size the creature is and base its hit die type off of that. Take the hit points and divide them by the average given to determine hit dice.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:04 pm

meepo wrote:
That's exactly the way I was thinking, divide by 4.5 and round up/down.

This is how I would do it as well.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:15 pm

4.5 works great if every monster had d8 HD. They don't. For example, constructs never (or, very rarely) have anything but d10s. In AD&D, they are listed as having a set # of HP, but their HD was calculated at HP / 5.5 for the average of their d10 HD type. If you want gods with 60 HD... go for it, but at that amount, you may as well just decide they cannot be killed and ignore HD altogether.

meepo · Post by **meepo** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:18 pm

serleran wrote:
4.5 works great if every monster had d8 HD. They don't. For example, constructs never (or, very rarely) have anything but d10s. In AD&D, they are listed as having a set # of HP, but their HD was calculated at HP / 5.5 for the average of their d10 HD type. If you want gods with 60 HD... go for it, but at that amount, you may as well just decide they cannot be killed and ignore HD altogether.

I've never been one to "fight the gods".

But, since you brought it up, you being the monster man and all, would you put a cap on HD for monsters, at least in terms of using their HD for saving throws and attack bonuses? You're right, a +60 to Hit/Save is pretty much pointless to play! Heck, even a +20 would be downright scary.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:26 pm

In C&C, it was assumed (by me) that the best AC possible would be 30 (AC -10 equivalent of AD&D), and a natural one always missed. Therefore creatures could not have more than 30 HD, or if they did, could not attack better than that. Look at the dragons, where, if I remember right, the best one (age 12 gold) gets a +27 or +29 (can't recall which specifically) to hit. Saves are slightly different, but if you look at the dragons... that should give you an idea of the "assumptions."

Gods would follow a slightly different approach, but the "limitations" would still apply. Also, the portfolio of the gods should have much more impact than simple attributes like HD. For example, a God of War should never miss if he attacks. A God of Magic cannot fail a save versus spell. It wouldn't matter if the god had 1 HD or 300... the simple fact that is a god of blahblah gives it total power over that blahblah. Just my opinion, though.

meepo · Post by **meepo** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:28 pm

That's good to know there is a limit in C&C, and that it isn't the sky as is the case with 3.5. Much appreciated info, thank you!

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:33 pm

I've been thinking about that AC 30 Cap, and your right. So if someone wants to run a game higher than that they are going to have to incorporate some 3E rules in order to get AC's higher than 30. You would have to allow such thing as luck, deflection, Armor, divine, etc... and allow these bonuses to stack.

Probably even incorporate a class level bonus to AC as was done in Wheel of Time and other "systems".

Camazotz · Post by **Camazotz** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:31 pm

Actually, I would find conversion easy, as I would use the following rule of thumb for combat with deities: The god always hits (and crits if you have a houserule crit) and surprisingly does max damage.....
Seems like that would definitely qualify the entity for deity status....although I suspect in a deity vs. deity situation then it wouldn't work that way, and one of the aforementioned conversion methods would work well to calculate the attacks; alternatively, it could become a contest of Wills; each deity makes an attribute check and the higher success scoe wins....just some odd thoughts (I always like to play my deities as being cosmically powerful, relative to the PCs...godkilling not likely to happen without major artifacts, anyway!)

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Converting AD&D Monsters without Hit Dice

Converting AD&D Monsters without Hit Dice

Deities in C&C....