Converting level adjustment.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:51 pm

I was working on converting parts of Races of Faerun to C&C but I am having problems with the level adjustment mechanic. One idea is to allow all +1 LA races as normal races with some tweaks to bring them in line with the C&C races then ignore any +2 LA races or higher. That is OK but there are some races I want to see in action that are +3 LA or higher. Has any converted or worked the LA mechanic to SIEGE?
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:56 pm

It doesn't work with C&C, since 3E assumes all classes have the same XP.

I would assess an XP penalty of 5, 10, or 15%, meaning thats how many extra XP they need in order to level up in their selected class/classes.

5% may not seem like much, but I am assuming the powers aren't very powerful, and 5% gets to be a lot around 9th level.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:05 pm

Balance? We don't need to steenking balance!

But seriously, yeah what Tree said works. it was used for the more powerful races in 2nd Edition and didn't cause any issues for us.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:55 pm

5% per point of LA? Not bad until you get to a +10 LA but some of that did get out of hand. I was possibly just thinking of allowing LA's of +1 to +3 though. Then there is the idea of porting the 3E XP progression to C&C but I don't know how well that would work,
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:42 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
5% per point of LA? Not bad until you get to a +10 LA but some of that did get out of hand. I was possibly just thinking of allowing LA's of +1 to +3 though. Then there is the idea of porting the 3E XP progression to C&C but I don't know how well that would work,

Yeah, I was assuming only a LA range of 1 to 3. Going higher is probably entering the realm of rediculous.

As for the XP of 3E versus the XP of C&C?

3E XP was what it was because they thought, and I stress thought, that the classes were balanced between them. Meaning the powers of one class were on par with the power of ALL the other classes. Maybe you agree, but I don't. Never did.

C&C/2E/1E/OD&D XP: These systems accept the fact that the classes are not balanced. So these systems try to keep them balanced by having the more powerful classes advance a bit slower, allowing the weaker classes to get a level or two ahead, eventually.

So you have to decide which school of thought you believe works. If you decide you like 3E's line of thought you'll have to recalibrate every class, especially the spell casters, and try to make them equal in power.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:59 pm

Other things they tried in earlier games were level caps and minimum required stats. I dont think those worked too well as the former basically tells someone they shouldn't play after so long and the latter fails because people dont always roll stats when they really absolutely had to play a certain race.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:34 pm

Well, I was thinking about the +10 LA creature, getting a 50% XP penalty. Why not? They got to be pretty badass to have a +10 LA, so would a 50% penalty really be that far out of whack?
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anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:50 am

I'd just assign an XP cost for each race, perhaps an average of the class levels, and start the game at Level 3 or so.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:46 pm

Treebore wrote:
Yeah, I was assuming only a LA range of 1 to 3. Going higher is probably entering the realm of rediculous.

As for the XP of 3E versus the XP of C&C?

3E XP was what it was because they thought, and I stress thought, that the classes were balanced between them. Meaning the powers of one class were on par with the power of ALL the other classes. Maybe you agree, but I don't. Never did.

C&C/2E/1E/OD&D XP: These systems accept the fact that the classes are not balanced. So these systems try to keep them balanced by having the more powerful classes advance a bit slower, allowing the weaker classes to get a level or two ahead, eventually.

So you have to decide which school of thought you believe works. If you decide you like 3E's line of thought you'll have to recalibrate every class, especially the spell casters, and try to make them equal in power.

Actually I was looking at it to speed up leveling for infrequent games.
But I do see what you mean. I think I'll go with the 5%XP penalty per point of LA idea for now since I am testing a new XP system in my games.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:01 pm

What I would do is this --

Before a character can earn level 1 in whichever class they want, they must earn X XP where X is the equivalent level of a fighter. If the character wants to be a fighter, they may begin as level one, but cannot advance to level 2 until X is gained.

For example --

Leval Adjustment of +3 means the character must earn the same XP of a 3rd level fighter to be considered a level 1 something else.

Why fighter? Its the baseline for all the classes.

XP % penalties are meaningless, unless they're so ridiculously high that you never advance. Of course, that assumes "normal" rules of progression.
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qstor · Post by **qstor** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:57 pm

LA +10 is a little overpowering if the other PCs are like 1st-3rd level IMHO

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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:10 pm

I hated the concept of level adjustments in 3.x

However, if you are insistent on something like this, C&C already has a mechanic that you can take advantage of to facilitate aspects of this. What is it? The Siege Mechanic of course!

You want play a critter as a character with a LA of 2?

Fine.

Take a 2 Penalty on all checks. Or, if you rather, 14 Prime vs 20 non-Prime.

Nothing else needs to be done and is plenty harsh to not have to worry about such things as Hit Dice or whatever. Allow them to advance normally in their chosen class but these adjustments will always be in effect.

However, I'd simply tweak the race to be 'playable' with appropriate penalties and bonuses where necessary. I do think that some things should never be player characters though.

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:43 pm

serleran wrote:
XP % penalties are meaningless, unless they're so ridiculously high that you never advance. Of course, that assumes "normal" rules of progression.

That is absolutely correct. A mere 5% has no meaning. It is not until the 20% mark that you start seeing minimal effect in level progression.

Drow in 2nd Edition had a 20% penalty.

If you are going to go less than 20% though you might as well not have them at all.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:47 pm

Hmmm. I am really just after the Tiefling and Aasimar. I think I can just convert them and make them in line with other races.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:56 pm

I think that's the way to go. And if the converted races are a little powered up? Bah, who cares. Balance isn't everything.

Should also note that even higher done XP penalties are meaningless unless it is for a long term campaign anyways. Otherwise the effect will never materialize.

I'll take a 90% XP penalty if it means for the next 2 months of gaming I get to play a supreme bad ass. The campaign will wind down, the characters only gained a couple levels and I pwned all the way through.

redbeard · Post by **redbeard** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:32 am

LA was a big pain in the neck in 3.x. I like 4E's solution better: you can pick racial feats as you level instead of other kinds.

But for C&C: the niftiest solution that I've seen was a set of 'racial classes' (mostly for multi-class) that I've seen floating around the web. It was something of a throw-back to OD&D, but I liked it.

You didn't have an elf that was a fighter-wizard. You had an elf fighter-wizard. The abilities of the race fit in with their class advancement, their experience points, hitpoints, etc.