The Oglig Ogre #16

GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:57 pm

Ok so right off let me say im hard on Magazines. I also have ZERO knowledge on how to create one. This review is from a guy who loves to play C&C and his thoughts on the magazine. At no time do I think my views are standard or that I really know what im talking about other than...what I like. So if you'r a 39 year old roleplaying addicted bald fat guy with too much time on his hands and a long history of playing games this might be your take on the magazine. Or maybe not.

My scale is from 1-5. 1 meaning of "lord why did they put this crap in the magazine" and 5 meaning "I must photocopy this and put it in my CK binder!" For a RPG magazine there is no finer reward than getting used in game.
The Front and Back covers - Score =3 Nice artwork on the front(im stealing the sword wielding guy for a NPC). The back cover is ok. I probably will not buy Of Gods and Monsters myself but I do like the new look of the book.
Fish or Cut Bait - Score=3 I like it in theory though I did not find this issues very funny(you win some you lose some).
Notes from The Managing Editor - Score =3 This was ok. Nothing new or that has not been said 50,000 times by tons of people but for those new to the Hobby I can see it as being good.
Letters To The Editor Score 2 Nothing here really interesting other than the letter from Serleran. That guy friggin lives and breaths C&C.
The Die is Cast Score 3 The To Kill a Character or not is as ancient as the games themselves and nothing new on this front. Mostly the same old stuff I was reading thirty years ago. Though it is Kewl to hear about Steves games. The only real bit of gold here was the warning about not to hang everything on a roll of the die. This lead to my players and I talking the whole thing out and understanding why I do things differantly.
Dragon Grumbles Score 2 Never heard of Tim Kask before(though im willing to write that that might be my issue and not standard) I'm left at the end thinking "ok so why did I need to know this?" Who ever he is in the big rpg scheme of things he knew Garry so im not sad he wrote that.
The Aihrdian Chronicles Score 4 The story was good and maybe if I played in that setting I would have liked it more. As I don't though I just looked at it like a story of fiction unrelated to C&C. Still I can't get enough Fantasy so good job!
Game Review Score 2 I don't play card games so this months was a wash for me. I have hope that roleplaying games might be looked at in the future and I know a lot of folks that play C&C also like card games so im gonna give it a 2 instead of a 1.
The Crusader's Assault Score 4 I liked this section a lot and not only did I get a good idea of the very few TLG adventures I dont have but some background on the business and personal side of things. Very good.Note- the end of this article made me want to go buy some adventures I don't have and maybe even use the Aihrde setting. Nice Hype for A13(dang you).
Troll Lord Freebies Score 5 already photocopied and in my binder! Nice Job!
Convention Blog Score 3 This was a fun read and made me once again wish I could make a convention(dang you guys! does no one live on the east coast??).This would be a 4 but im jealous and spiteful!
Hammer and Anvil Score 2 I want to rate this a 3 I really do. CK advice is always good but this one was so specific in its examples and pretty obvious in its responses that it did not do me any good. Still not all CK have years of experiences to draw on so I gave it a 2. I'm sure it helped some CKers, just not me. I feel guilty for the 2 though.
Marks Mechanics Score 3 This information is good and well written. The Illusionist though? I can't help but think of all the many many things that would have been better in its place. Not one character in my games has ever wanted to play one. I have a few NPC's though and the base information is presented in a easy to understand shorthand. I give it a 3 and look at the new Illusionist stuff in the Players handbook 4th printing and kinda shrug my shoulders.
Roadhouse Rogues Score 5 Love new spells and monsters and components as well as the story element. Keep it coming!
The Angry Gamer Score 5 I always read this first. Every time I laugh and get into a long talk with one of my players about it. Some months in the past this was the only reason I read Crusader. Love it. That said though I can't give it a 5 because I never really use any of it to help my game........well screw that...heck with it im changig it to a 5.
Monsters of Aihrde Score 5 It's already in the binder! My players will soon face this foe the next time they take on the Bloodtusk tribe! I can't wait to spring this on them!

Ok well thats it for this month other than one last thing. I read that Crusader wants to add other rpg game articles at some point. I really feel that this is the WRONG way to go. I dont mind a review of another game but I buy Crusader for ideas and things to use in my C&C game. Frankly the magazine isnt large enough for me to feel happy with other game articles. Maybe if it was four times the current size I could see one a month but I have to wonder why? It seems crazy to me to point to other fun games and draw attention to them. After all if you do a good enough job at it I might just go play them and not C&C! I'm not talking about other Siege Engine games here although even them I am not paying my money to read about in Crusader.

This is from a guy who does buy other Siege Engine games( or will if Pulp Siege ever comes out!).
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:16 pm

GameOgre wrote:
Dragon Grumbles Score 2 Never heard of Tim Kask before(though im willing to write that that might be my issue and not standard) I'm left at the end thinking "ok so why did I need to know this?" Who ever he is in the big rpg scheme of things he knew Garry so im not sad he wrote that.

Well, he was the first officially hired TSR employee back in the day, and he was managing Editor of Dragon up till around 85' or so as I understand it.

Except for Gary and Dave Arneson, you don't go much farther back than Tim.

Check in the credits of the 1e AD&D books and on back.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:07 pm

I'll admit Tim's first article was a put off. I had head comments like these enough on certain boards and blogs to not want to see them in my favorite gaming mag. However this article was better. I wish though, that Tim would have saved his Fear and Loathing in Lake Geneva article for Crusader though ( it can be found Here towards the bottom of the thread. ). However, Tim is an excellent storyteller and writer so I do look forward to more of his work.
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:10 pm

Very nice review. As for the cartoon, I'm always torn between a story line and a humorous story line. I guess it shows. haha

I love Jason's art though. Top Notch.

Steve
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:33 pm

Nice review, and it seems that I like the same things you do. I think the "Hammer and Anvil" article is very good, but like you I don't find it useful because I too have been gaming for over 2 decades. However, for what it is written to do, for the audience its aimed at, I think its a very good article. Definitely much better than anything I could write.

I like learning the history behind the game, so I liked the Tim Kask article more than you did.

I too do not want Crusader to go into other games, except for the SIEGE related games TLG is planning on doing. Crusader is a "house" magazine, and I think it should stay that way. However I have found the board game reviews interesting, and I am not into board games. Axis and Allies being the only one I really like and bother to play.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:39 pm

Treebore wrote:
I too do not want Crusader to go into other games, except for the SIEGE related games TLG is planning on doing. Crusader is a "house" magazine, and I think it should stay that way.

Same here. I don't like hearing the idea of doing other systems is being kicked around. If other games are brought in I may have to reconsider my subscription.
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James M. Ward · Post by **James M. Ward** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:47 pm

James M. Ward here, the managing editor of the magazine. Thank you for taking the time to write about the issue. As people are reading these reviews please keep the following in mind.

I personally must sell more CRUSADER magazines. If I don't increase the number of sales the magazine isn't being as effective a marketing tool as it should or could be.

I must appeal to not only the wonderful fans of C&C but other people as well. I agree whole heartedly that to deal with lots of other role playing games we have to be much larger. However, I want those 4.0 players.

I must appeal to a wider audience because there aren't enough fans of C&C that want the magazine right now. I'm happy to report that this factor is changing as more and more people learn to like C&C and the magazine. It is now monthly. It is now 36 pages. It is now focused on certain popular articles.

The things you are giving 2s I would be giving 4s mainly because you have little idea of the fine work that needs to be done to write those pieces. Our writers are working for free because they love the game.

I'm trying different things to see what people like. I'm going to continue to experiment. You didn't like the game review, others I assure you love those game reviews because they are tired of buying untested things that they don't enjoy.

So all of you fans give all the opinions you want. I will listen to every single one of them and I know Steve does to.

Don't be surprised if we don't instantly change the magazine because of what you say, but thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with us.

James M. Ward

Managing Editor

CRUSADER

tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:50 pm

I'm torn on whether or not the magazine should feature other game systems. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE SAVAGE WORLDS(for example, but I'm not sure if that will lure in new people to Crusader, or put off some of the C&C diehards. That said, I'm not totally opposed to branching out a little. On the matter of Tim Kask's stories, bring em' on. Mr. Ward, if you're listening, I'd love to here the stories behind Met Alpha, and definately Gamma World. Might as well tell a few other TSR stories from many moons ago. Stephen and Jason's comics are pretty good, but probably not KOTD funny. Gotta fill that inside cover with something, so it might as well be that. On the matter of "articles that have essentially been written before", that's kind of hard to avoid. Found most of the Crusader articles(i.e. Sandy's article on the Illusionist) to be quite useful. One of the best things as of late has been the Angry Gamer segment. That line about Stephen defending the usefulness of a walrus, and its inclusion in the PHB was laugh-out-loud funny. Also, knowing Todd Gray(from con appearances since 2003), it's hard to believe he and Steve can really get into discussions and arguments about broken character classes, etc. Plus, Stephen seems to be a guy who says it like it is. Not too much politically-correct crapola from him. Anyway, I assure you I'm not boot-licking when I say the issue(if not perfect) was quite good. To quote the old Viriginia Slims cigarette ad..."Crusader, you've come a long way baby."

GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:52 pm

Hello Mister Ward! I'm happy to have you at the Helm! I realize your position is a tough one( though im sure not how tough). I respectfuly disagree that other game systems need to be included for the enjoyment of C&C players however I will not even attempt to agrue that perhaps a magazine that appealed to a broader audience might not sell better. There are other magazines that handle 4E ect.. though.(Level Up ect).

I would hate to see Crusader go that path. This is coming from a 4E player as well as a C&C player. 4E has several great outlets for game information and articles while my C&C game has one. Two if you count Doomsday(I do).

While I agree that everyone who wrote in this issue of Crusader might be talented and put in a lot of effort I do see some articles as more useful and enjoyable for me. At no time do I think my opinion matters more than anyone else who subscribes. I also can give my opinion from the safety of sitting on the sidelines It was meant as constructive feedback.

As the Captain of this ship I understand that you will do as you think best and I do realize that its a lot more easy to yell to the Captain that you want to be closer to the beach than it is to navigate the dangerous river while others sit on the topdeck yellig for a better view!

Respectfully your Subcriber,

Gameogre
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James M. Ward · Post by **James M. Ward** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:57 pm

Gameogre the "Subscriber"

You had me at "Subscriber." I need as many subscribers as I can get. Thank you for the thoughts you expressed.

It would be wonderful to get about another 100 subscribers and I think that is a very possible goal if you fans will tell your friends that the magazine is becoming something special.

Also, you haven't seen anything yet. This is going to be a great year for the magazine.

best,

James M. Ward

Managing Editor

CRUSADER

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:12 pm

There is another reason I do not want Crusader to go into other games. Dragon magazine tried it. Several times. Each time they went back to pure D&D articles.

Plus lets face a basic fact, most, if not all, of us subscribers subscribe because Crusader is about C&C. Change that and you risk making more and more of Crusader unwanted content, and therefore a greater waste of our money.

Dragon magazine tried many times to broaden their appeal with broader content, and they lost more than they gained, every time.

So I am definitely interested in why you think you can expect better results with Crusader. I think you will push it if you add StarSIEGE and the other in house games TLG is creating. If you go for 3E and 4E customers, or players interested in other RPG's, you'll definitely be taking a risk, a risk that was deemed a failure several times for Dragon magazine.

I for one enjoyed looking at all the different games Dragon magazine covered, but I also subscribed religiously, and read the editorials about the extra content, and why they quit carrying the content, every time, especially when Paizo tried it, because we got detailed answers on their website, because Paizo is awesome about talking to us, their customers, even when they were under WOTC's thumb.

So I am very interested in hearing what is in your game plan that will allow you to succeed when all previous attempts ended up failures.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:18 pm

Treebore wrote:
Plus lets face a basic fact, most, if not all, of us subscribers subscribe because Crusader is about C&C. Change that and you risk making more and more of Crusader unwanted content, and therefore a greater waste of our money.

While this sums up my feelings well enough I will expand on this. Since TLG is not in the business of putting out splatbooks ( A good thing) The Crusader has become a great resource of little extras of information on the game. I think back to Dragon and the first Cavaliers, NPC classes and other goodness that I found. Even in it's later 3e days there were still things like this that I found useful. If that goes away the usefulness of the mag drops.

Now I am not opposed to things like StarSIEGE or Harvester being included. They fall into the SIEGE family and I feel they will work. However, TLG's flagship is C&C and it should get the lions share of support in the Crusader. I do hope things will stay this way and the outside system idea is dropped.
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James M. Ward · Post by **James M. Ward** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:25 pm

Treebore,

I have to disagree with you on DRAGON failing to appeal to other RPGers. I was with them as their publisher when they were selling the most. Those were the 135,000 a month times with 75,000 subscribers. This was in the '80s.

We got more readers because the magazine had a broad set of articles that many different people were interested in at the time.

I have no problem doing more Siege engine pieces. I'm not getting any StarSiege at the moment.

My game plan is this; I'm going to take the best features of DRAGON that I thought worked and the best features of DUNGEON that I thought worked and grow CRUSADER. I don't expect to do it in a month, 6 months, or even a year.

When I'm done Retail stores won't be such a hard sell. I hope in a year to get up to 1,000 subscribers and 4,000 other readers who want to buy the magazine. I think it can happen. Everyone has seen 8-16 are liking what they see and I believe the magazine just keeps getting better.

Another reason it's getting better are the great suggestions from you fans. Thank you very much.

James M. Ward

James M. Ward

tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:30 pm

Regarding Dragon in the 1980's, I didn't mind them branching out into Star Frontiers, Marvel Superheroes, Gamma World, Top-Secret, etc. But, I'm sure there are many people who did. That's a tough call, but I do feel safe with James and the Trolls at the helm. I used to buy Crusader from Stephen, Todd, and Peter at the con's. Only missed the very limited run 1st issue. Otherwise, I have them all. Recently subscribed as well.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:37 pm

Quote:
Letters To The Editor Score 2 Nothing here really interesting other than the letter from Serleran. That guy friggin lives and breaths C&C.

That's some interesting news. I don't remember writing any letter to the editor... must've been when I was sleeping. Now I'm all curious to see what I may have said...
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:44 pm

James M. Ward wrote:
Treebore,

I have to disagree with you on DRAGON failing to appeal to other RPGers. I was with them as their publisher when they were selling the most. Those were the 135,000 a month times with 75,000 subscribers. This was in the '80s.

We got more readers because the magazine had a broad set of articles that many different people were interested in at the time.

I have no problem doing more Siege engine pieces. I'm not getting any StarSiege at the moment.

My game plan is this; I'm going to take the best features of DRAGON that I thought worked and the best features of DUNGEON that I thought worked and grow CRUSADER. I don't expect to do it in a month, 6 months, or even a year.

When I'm done Retail stores won't be such a hard sell. I hope in a year to get up to 1,000 subscribers and 4,000 other readers who want to buy the magazine. I think it can happen. Everyone has seen 8-16 are liking what they see and I believe the magazine just keeps getting better.

Another reason it's getting better are the great suggestions from you fans. Thank you very much.

James M. Ward

James M. Ward

I figured you were looking at the 80's. Everything I read now says D&D took off in the 80's because of the "Satan" scare, etc.... So it stands to reason that as D&D's popularity increased Dragons rate of sales would increase too.

However, I know your a smart guy, so I have to assume you saw evidence that Dragons readership increased because of content, not due to the general increase in popularity of D&D. However, the failure of the move under Paizo/Mona still makes me wonder how wise it will be to try it with Crusader.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:12 pm

tylermo wrote:
Regarding Dragon in the 1980's, I didn't mind them branching out into Star Frontiers, Marvel Superheroes, Gamma World, Top-Secret, etc. But, I'm sure there are many people who did. That's a tough call, but I do feel safe with James and the Trolls at the helm. I used to buy Crusader from Stephen, Todd, and Peter at the con's. Only missed the very limited run 1st issue. Otherwise, I have them all. Recently subscribed as well.

But look at the titles. Those were all TSR games. So having a Crusader with C&C, SS, Harvesters and other TLG games is no big deal to me. What I do not want to see is Pathfinder, Rolemaster, 4e or T20 coming into the magazine taking space away from TLG games and C&C especially.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:27 pm

I play multiple games and wouldn't gripe if other systems cropped up in Crusader, as long as C&C maintained the lion share. If the material is good, it's good.

My concern stemming from this however is that I'm fairly certain the recent podcast from that con in Calli had Steve stating that the Crusader planned on remaining a house magazine even though he initially wanted it to be more than that.

Just seems like a bit of conflicting info and I hope there is some communication in that regards.

Either way the mag goes though, as long as it is quality, I'm game.

tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:56 am

Right you are. Those were TSR games, but good times indeed. Definately have to agree with those that say the lion's share should be C&C, related Siege games, or other TLG products. Provided they can pull that off, and keep the magazine in print, I'll be happy. Then again, some outside games, reviews, etc. wouldn't be too bad. I do enjoy most of Knights of the Dinner Table very much. Let's face it, they don't just push Kenzer and Company products. They have new game reviews, classic game reviews, etc.

jaguar451 · Post by **jaguar451** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:46 am

C&C, C&C Basic, Harvester, C&C E6, Star(SIEGE) Frontiers, .... (for them not in the know, I'm making up the last two.)

Can't say what will make you the most money, just what I'm most interested in, so a leaning for a continued focus on C&C on my part. Although even there, can't say something new won't catch my fancy.

I didn't think I'd like the fiction, but I do.

Reviews of games, kinda interesting, but not why I subscribe (had to work that in....
I really liked 'The Die is Cast'.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:21 am

There's an idea. I can change the tone of the magazine by doing a 'hot elf chick of the month' centerfold.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:27 am

Palladium does something like that, only they do it every X issues -- the "swimsuit edition" of Rifter. Oh, and Weekly World News does it -- the infamous Page 5 girl.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:33 am

Then we really will have an Oggling Ogre.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:38 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
There's an idea. I can change the tone of the magazine by doing a 'hot elf chick of the month' centerfold.

PB wins the thread.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:19 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
PB wins the thread.

BUT, this is not a bad idea. Jim Ward wants ideas and suggestions for the Crusader... well there you have it. Have a gorgeous elven beauty in the centerfold, of course accompanied by requisite C&C stats.

Now THAT is an idea.

-O
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:30 pm

Omote wrote:
BUT, this is not a bad idea. Jim Ward wants ideas and suggestions for the Crusader... well there you have it. Have a gorgeous elven beauty in the centerfold, of course accompanied by requisite C&C stats.

Now THAT is an idea.

-O

I don't think "36/22/36" is helpful for running a game though.
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tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:14 am

Would you prefer centerfolds of the Brothers Chenault, Mark Sandy, Todd Gray, Mac Golden, Peter Bradley, and the rest of the Troll crew??? Bring on the Elf chick centerfold, if we must. Even some half-orc beauty would be welcome compared to the aforementioned.

James M. Ward · Post by **James M. Ward** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:37 pm

Some of you might find this funny. For years and years I suggested we post a lovely orc maiden (lovely only to orcs) in Dragon magazine as a center fold. We never had the cash to pay a talented artist to do the work even in the hay days of Dragon when the magazine cleared $50,000 profit every month.

It is much the same now, I'm not sure which I would fear more

1) the crazed people who expected a map at the center of the magazine;

2) the crazed female fans wanting equal time (shudder) with a massive male orc as the center fold;

3) or my boss, Steve who kicks my butt off of the magazine for presenting such a stupid idea.

There will be no center fold of attractive anythings at least not until the magazine grows a bit and makes more of a profit.

James M. Ward

Managing Editor

CRUSADER

P.S. Thanks to all who have subscribed. We could still use a lot more new subscribers.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:52 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
..."36/22/36"...

Yeah. Only if she's 5'3".

-
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tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:06 pm

Need a top-quality artist for cheap? I hear that Bradley fellow's pretty reasonable. THey don't call him 20 Dollar for nothing. Actually, why do they call him 20 dollar?

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