Revised GSL question...

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:00 pm

May not be the best place to start this thread and by no means is this to cause a problem... Now that I've made my disclaimer:

With the revised GSL no longer causing the same sort of grief towards OGL material. Could producers like Goodman Games start selling their 3.5 DCCs again (at least in PDFs)?

Not that this affects TLG in the slightest but it certainly changes a couple of things right?

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:17 pm

I've been wondering the same thing. They would still have to abide with the D20 logo thing, IE take it off, but it does read like they could produce 3.5/OGL material again. So Goodman C&C modules don't appear to be a potential problem anymore.
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Coleston the Cavalier · Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:18 pm

Holy cow! I signed the GSL a week before this update. I had no clue they had done this.

Indeed, the entire original section 6 ("OGL Product Conversions" & "No Backward Conversion") is gone.

I'm no lawyer, but that does seem to allow both the continued publishing of 3.5 products as well as the conversion of 4ed to 3.5/OGL and 3.5/OGL to 4ed.

So I think they could, but they have been geared up, developing and publishing 4ed material for many months now.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:27 pm

Green Ronin is selling their old D20 books in pdf with a new logo called '3rd era'. I don't see anything stopping print runs of these books but that will be up to the companies whether or not they do this.
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Coleston the Cavalier · Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:50 pm

That's true. The license to use the d20 (a trademark of WOTC) logo is gone, but there are a number of new ones for 3.5 material that publishers now use.
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Grendel T. Troll · Post by **Grendel T. Troll** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:01 pm

Yes, This has been discussed before in another thread here.

It looks like WotC couldn't get enough companies to disgard their OGL stuff in favor of the GSL. As of this month, after their press release, WotC has removed Section 6 of the GSL. They also added more material to their 4e SRD's, so publishers can do a little more.

As for GG, it's up to them. However, since they were still continuing to publish their OGL stuff, at least until the previous Section 6's deadline would make them stop, they will probably continue to do at least that.

It would be great if GG would make new OGL stuff because of this.....
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:06 pm

This is why I don't think D20 will die off in the near future. With the original OGL and 3.X SRD there is so much that can be done and will be done that the possibilities are almost endless. Look at C&C. At it's heart it is a boiled down SRD with a classic game feel. And it is doing well.

As well we have other games like Pathfinder and T20 that have a good fan following and will not likely die off soon. What Wotzee has done is recreate the gaming market in an open form.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:37 pm

Grendel T. Troll wrote:
As for GG, it's up to them. However, since they were still continuing to publish their OGL stuff, at least until the previous Section 6's deadline would make them stop, they will probably continue to do at least that.

It would be great if GG would make new OGL stuff because of this.....

It is my understanding that, even before this, a company could do this. However, if a 'line' was done or converted to 4th Edition, the OGL for that same line would be revoked. This was the case for the DCC line and was the big reason why Necromancer didn't sign the initial GSL. The idea that the OGL would be revoked for things like Tome of Horrors was terrible. Now, if they wanted to, they can put out a new Tome of Horrors under Pathfinder and one for 4th.

As for Goodman Games, as Joseph is not one to discuss details of his business decisions, I can only assume that he simply took advantage of the new edition to re-tool his lines. There is no reason why the Wicked Fantasy Factory line had to be axed -- unless there were plans to do a 4th edition version. In terms of the Judge's Guild Wilderlands modules, these were axed too but they didn't need to be. Only 4 WFF modules were produced and one of those was for Free RPG Day 2007. Only 3 Judges Guild modules were done but I believe that might have also been the limit of the license.

Switching DCC to 4th was a good move for them but there has been an increased focus on offering 'system neutral' ones. PC Pearls and GM Gems are still around, Points of Light is statless, and the Esoteric Creature Generator is awesome.

However, I think this does open the door for Goodman Games to do other things (OGL-related) should 4th Edition begin to falter for them -- like more C&C stuff!

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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:39 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
This is why I don't think D20 will die off in the near future. With the original OGL and 3.X SRD there is so much that can be done and will be done that the possibilities are almost endless. Look at C&C. At it's heart it is a boiled down SRD with a classic game feel. And it is doing well.

As well we have other games like Pathfinder and T20 that have a good fan following and will not likely die off soon. What Wotzee has done is recreate the gaming market in an open form.

I completely agree though I have some mixed feelings about that prospect. By this I mean there is so much d20 stuff already!
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:02 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
As well we have other games like Pathfinder and T20 that have a good fan following and will not likely die off soon. What Wotzee has done is recreate the gaming market in an open form.

Agreed. If anything, I think/hope this will usher in a new era of in-house systems. Now, many of them might be derivative of the d20 liscense with their own little tweaks, but I think the GSL did a good job pushing people back to the OGL and to house systems instead of supporting 4e. *shrug*

I think it may end up being a good thing for the industry.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:24 pm

Hold on!

Was this old GSL thingy the reason GGames wasnt making anymore C&C modules?
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Benoist · Post by **Benoist** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:26 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
With the revised GSL no longer causing the same sort of grief towards OGL material. Could producers like Goodman Games start selling their 3.5 DCCs again (at least in PDFs)?

In theory, yes, they now can.

Now, will they actually do it, God only knows.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:32 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
Agreed. If anything, I think/hope this will usher in a new era of in-house systems. Now, many of them might be derivative of the d20 liscense with their own little tweaks, but I think the GSL did a good job pushing people back to the OGL and to house systems instead of supporting 4e. *shrug*

I think it may end up being a good thing for the industry.

And if you look at it, this means with the return of the house system the GSL moved everything full circle back to the days before the OGL. The next step is small group systems effectively closing the loop and bringing gaming back to it's roots.

What wotzee tried to remove from gaming they brought back. The irony of this makes me laugh.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:47 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
And if you look at it, this means with the return of the house system the GSL moved everything full circle back to the days before the OGL. The next step is small group systems effectively closing the loop and bringing gaming back to it's roots.

What wotzee tried to remove from gaming they brought back. The irony of this makes me laugh.

Oh yeah, it is hillarious. And it is beginning to feel similar, at least to me, to the days before 3rd Edition and the OGL. There's still a little openness out there, at least with the followers of the OGL, and that I don't - it seems that a lot of the prescribers of the OGL are finally using it for what it was orinigally intended.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:51 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
Hold on!

Was this old GSL thingy the reason GGames wasnt making anymore C&C modules?

I don't think so because if it did, the C&C modules they did would also have been pulped at end end of 2008. I think by the very virtue that these were done subsequently for a difference license (and thus a different line) may have made these exempt. It might not be as simple as that but I couldn't say what it is for sure.

As for new C&C modules... 4th Edition just seems to be the main focus right now for the company. Few third party publishers that had been giving support for the system thus far and I'm sure the material is doing very well for them. All you have to do is go to the site and look at all the recently released and upcoming 4E releases compared to everything else. Unfortunately, I just don't think the C&C modules sell as well as their regular DCCs do.

Oh... and it looks like the new WFF module is 4th Edition compatible as well which reinforces my earlier supposition.

Right now Goodman is getting my support with the odd purchase of 'system neutral' stuff since I have no inclination to further collect DCCs since they switched to 4th. Besides, I'm still busy tracking down previous DCCs.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:44 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
I don't think so because if it did, the C&C modules they did would also have been pulped at end end of 2008. I think by the very virtue that these were done subsequently for a difference license (and thus a different line) may have made these exempt. It might not be as simple as that but I couldn't say what it is for sure.

C&C was produced under the OGL and not the D20 license. Thus it was exempt from the pulping that was required by WOTC at the end of '08. Otherwise C&C as we know it would have had to have been redesigned to not be in violation of the D20 license pull. So, in the end, Goodman could keep the C&C modules due to this.

Like you though I am watching what they do before I pull the trigger on anything else. I have high interest in the system neutral products but i want to see them produce more before I buy in. I feel this may have been done as a filler between the D20 to GSL move. I hope I am wrong.

Don't quote me on this but, I seem to have heard that Gooman was looking for writers for their C&C line but that may have been a rumor.
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Dragondaddy · Post by **Dragondaddy** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:23 pm

Here's what Chris Pramas has to say about the revised gsl;
http://freeport-pirate.livejournal.com/117711.html

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:42 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
C&C was produced under the OGL and not the D20 license. Thus it was exempt from the pulping that was required by WOTC at the end of '08. Otherwise C&C as we know it would have had to have been redesigned to not be in violation of the D20 license pull. So, in the end, Goodman could keep the C&C modules due to this.

Like you though I am watching what they do before I pull the trigger on anything else. I have high interest in the system neutral products but i want to see them produce more before I buy in. I feel this may have been done as a filler between the D20 to GSL move. I hope I am wrong.

Don't quote me on this but, I seem to have heard that Gooman was looking for writers for their C&C line but that may have been a rumor.

Ah... but didn't the old GSL had the clause involving 'product lines' and the termination of the OGL for those lines that are developed for 4th Ed. I think this was referred to as the 'poison pill' clause by some commentators of the GSL.

This was the concern regarding the future of the Wilderlands if Judge's Guild decided to go to 4th Edition. Doing so would have ended the OGL for Wilderlands material which would mean that AGP couldn't produce any d20 or C&C material for the Wilderlands any longer. Fortunately, Judge's Guild decided to stick with the OGL for the Wilderlands. The good news now is that Necromancer Games is free to do Tegel Manor for 4th Edition without putting the rest of the line in jeopardy should Judge's Guild now decide to sign the revised GSL.

Like I said before, I'm certainly no expert and I've only been following this to a marginal degree. I could be quite wrong here. As for more system-neutral products, the only new one still being developed is Points of Light II. I really liked the first one and heartily recommend it.

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Pat Payne · Post by **Pat Payne** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:19 am

moriarty777 wrote:
Ah... but didn't the old GSL had the clause involving 'product lines' and the termination of the OGL for those lines that are developed for 4th Ed. I think this was referred to as the 'poison pill' clause by some commentators of the GSL.

Moriarty, IINM, there is no way to "revoke" or "terminate" the OGL. IIRC what that clause said was probably more akin to "If you agree to the GSL, you agree to stop publishing OGL-compatible content for this product line and agree to not exercise your rights under the OGL for said product line." In short, the clause was a legal agreement binding the licensee to abrogate some of those rights in exchange for use of the 4E-GSL tookit. But they were never terminated.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:46 am

Dragondaddy wrote:
Here's what Chris Pramas has to say about the revised gsl;
http://freeport-pirate.livejournal.com/117711.html

If I was him I would do just what he is doing. Their M&M line seems to be the most popular superhero genre in these parts. And T20 doesn't do too shabby either.

Personally I still play a pick up game of M&M 1st ed. sometimes.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:02 am

I imagine the new GSL allows one to do what WotC allows in the provisions of the license. Beyond that, I'd suggest asking a specialist in the field of IP / copyright / trademark law.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:34 pm

Pat Payne wrote:
Moriarty, IINM, there is no way to "revoke" or "terminate" the OGL. IIRC what that clause said was probably more akin to "If you agree to the GSL, you agree to stop publishing OGL-compatible content for this product line and agree to not exercise your rights under the OGL for said product line." In short, the clause was a legal agreement binding the licensee to abrogate some of those rights in exchange for use of the 4E-GSL tookit. But they were never terminated.

A fine line but a distinct one. Now that you mention this, it rings a bell. I guess I got this clause and the criteria concerning the d20 logo confused. Following what you said though, by accepting to no longer exercise your rights, that would also apply to reprints as well, would it not?

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:57 pm

AGP would not have lost the ability to do Wilderlands if Judges Guild allowed the license to continue. The GSL only applied to specific lines of product, not even specific publishers.

So if Goodman had wanted he could have started a new 4E line of modules, like he has done, and kept doing 3E DCC's, but he chose not to. The C&C modules are a line of their own, and the only reason Joe hasn't done more is because he needed to concentrate his resources to maximize his success in 4E. Discontinuation of the C&C modules was never a possibility due to the GSL, since the C&C modules are their own line.

Tegal Manor will not, is not, be/ing done by Necromancer Games. That is completely back in Judges Guilds hands, according to Clark in a post he made two weeks or so ago. That same post indicated that Judges Guild is going to actively re-enter the RPG market as a business again. That was just "indicated", it was not a clear cut statement.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:06 pm

Treebore wrote:
AGP would not have lost the ability to do Wilderlands if Judges Guild allowed the license to continue. The GSL only applied to specific lines of product, not even specific publishers.

So if Goodman had wanted he could have started a new 4E line of modules, like he has done, and kept doing 3E DCC's, but he chose not to. The C&C modules are a line of their own, and the only reason Joe hasn't done more is because he needed to concentrate his resources to maximize his success in 4E. Discontinuation of the C&C modules was never a possibility due to the GSL, since the C&C modules are their own line.

Tegal Manor will not, is not, be/ing done by Necromancer Games. That is completely back in Judges Guilds hands, according to Clark in a post he made two weeks or so ago. That same post indicated that Judges Guild is going to actively re-enter the RPG market as a business again. That was just "indicated", it was not a clear cut statement.

Ah... I don't frequent Necromancer so I wasn't aware of the current news regarding this. However, with regards to the Judge's Guild, if they did sign the GSL to do Wilderlands material for 4th edition, it *would* have impacted AGP's efforts to continue doing Wilderlands material for C&C or d20. The 'Wilderlands' in this case being the line in question. There was a few threads regarding this back last year:
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

However, I'm not even sure if the GSL was even finalized by then.
Not that it matters anymore. There could be Wilderlands 4th Ed material now without any impact on anything else for other lines.

As for the C&C module conversions, I think you are bang-on and these are probably considered a completely separate line. Though some may be based originally on a DCC, these are *not* C&C DCC's but just C&C adventures.
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JediOre · Post by **JediOre** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:07 pm

The way I hear it, Goodman Games has not produced any more original C&C modules because Joseph hasn't seen anything submitted for C&C that was very good.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:20 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
Ah... I don't frequent Necromancer so I wasn't aware of the current news regarding this. However, with regards to the Judge's Guild, if they did sign the GSL to do Wilderlands material for 4th edition, it *would* have impacted AGP's efforts to continue doing Wilderlands material for C&C or d20. The 'Wilderlands' in this case being the line in question. There was a few threads regarding this back last year:
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

However, I'm not even sure if the GSL was even finalized by then.
Not that it matters anymore. There could be Wilderlands 4th Ed material now without any impact on anything else for other lines.

As for the C&C module conversions, I think you are bang-on and these are probably considered a completely separate line. Though some may be based originally on a DCC, these are *not* C&C DCC's but just C&C adventures.
M

What wasn't understood last year is that each line effected by the GSL was for each individual publisher.

So if Necromancer signed, only Necromancer's lines would have been affected, not AGP's. The only way "Wilderlands" as a line could have been effected is if Judges Guild signed it as a company. However any license they had, with Necromancer , Goodman, and AGP would not effect their individual product lines unless they also signed the GSL.

So that was part of the confusion at the time, confusion that has been totally removed from the current GSL.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:37 pm

Treebore wrote:
That same post indicated that Judges Guild is going to actively re-enter the RPG market as a business again. That was just "indicated", it was not a clear cut statement.

Here's to hoping they go with C&C or OGL based stuff over 4E stuff. But you can't blame them if the do go with 4E.
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Pat Payne · Post by **Pat Payne** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:51 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
A fine line but a distinct one. Now that you mention this, it rings a bell. I guess I got this clause and the criteria concerning the d20 logo confused. Following what you said though, by accepting to no longer exercise your rights, that would also apply to reprints as well, would it not?

M

That'd be my guess, o Napoleon of Crime. That was IMO, why Goodman Games had to get rid of their DCC line in 3.5 -- they weren't even allowed to keep the already-existing product in print. Although it'd be interesting to see how that changes now that the license has been altered to excise that clause. I'm wondering if there's a "all versions of this license are equally valid, and you choose which version applies" provision in the GSL as there is in the OGL, or if they're stuck with the version of the license they accepted in the first place.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:26 pm

JediOre wrote:
The way I hear it, Goodman Games has not produced any more original C&C modules because Joseph hasn't seen anything submitted for C&C that was very good.

Quite technically Goodman Games never published an original C&C module yet. They've published converted modules based on their 3E stuff. Which would seem to cvontradict that Joe didnt like the material since he's already published over fifty of them.

Just being picky.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:02 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
Quite technically Goodman Games never published an original C&C module yet. They've published converted modules based on their 3E stuff. Which would seem to cvontradict that Joe didnt like the material since he's already published over fifty of them.

Just being picky.

Joe needed new material in order to publish more C&C, since at the tie the GSL was understood, and in fact did say, Joe cannot reprint DCC material, even as C&C. The newly revised GSL will allow him to do more conversions now. However, to do new and original, he still needs good submissions.

Only the CURRENT GSL applies, all past GLS's are null and voided by the current version. This is clearly written in the GSL, it may be fine print, but its in there.

So the biggest draw back I can see to the current GSL is that it could still change at any time, and you are automatically obligated to following it, or follow their rules for getting out of it, which will involve destruction of inventory. However I doubt they can make any changes that "go backwards".
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