My new mods

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:38 am

I'm not allowed to give out plot info, but I'm told I'm supposed to "talk it up" so here's a pic my wife, Laura, designed for my first mod that won't be used in the actual module (not old school enough). I originally called it "Millenial Deathtrap" but the troll lords want a new name so that's been changed.

It's high level (well, actually I've run it for anything from 10th level up). For better or worse, once you go in, you never come out quite the same (if you make it out at all, that is).

Heh, name one character who wouldn't wanna conquer this place! Heck. I designed it and I wanna own it! lol. It's a once in a lifetime chance for characters to experience magic the likes of which they've never seen before!

Brian Miller
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miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:45 am

This brings up a good point. My wife, Laura, does 3d pics like you just saw, but C&C uses only 2 styles - old school and Peter's style (which is incredible in my opinion).

Do 3d pics appeal to anyone out there? They certainly do to me! Perhaps it's just me since I love realism in art.

Brian Miller
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:06 am

3d, yes. Computer-generated? Only in a sci-fi game.

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:11 am

serleran wrote:
3d, yes. Computer-generated? Only in a sci-fi game.

All I have to say about that, Serleran, is if you knew the month - hours upon hours - it took for my wife to design that pic, you wouldn't write it off so easily. Those things don't make themselves, you know. Just because the texture is computer based, doesn't make it EASY! There's no "tower" button to click. No "terrain" button to click. That all has to be designed from scratch. In fact, ask anyone who does C.A.D. design for any company, and they'll tell ya the 3-d stuff is time intensive work. In fact, if you saw the "wireframe" she had to design for this thing, you'd have trouble even figuring out what it is...OMG too many lines!

Those who can't do it, criticize. Me, I just admire excellent work. That pic is professional quality which required extensive training and lots of effort. One shouldn't overlook that fact. Perhaps the C&C crowd doesn't appreciate this type of work. If so, then I guess they also don't appreciate the cool digital work in video games or in almost every high budget movie put out these days. Sure, they make it look easy. But that's hundreds of people working for years to produce that stuff!

T.I.M.E. instensive...like puting together a million piece jigsaw puzzle one piece at a time!

Brian Miller
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:22 am

Umm, ok.... you took that extremely wrong.

The simple fact is this: a computer creation (there has been one exception) does not, to me, say "fantasy." It says something entirely different, most often being "I was created with super high-technology from the real world." That is a turn off in gaming to me, unless I a playing a game based on the real world, or a sci-fi themed game.

Its that simple.

Nothing to do with how hard it is, or isn't. I know how hard it is... my brother does the stuff for a living, and I've tried 3d CAD myself. Some things a computer just can't do... at least not yet.

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:32 am

serleran wrote:
Umm, ok.... you took that extremely wrong.

The simple fact is this: a computer creation (there has been one exception) does not, to me, say "fantasy." It says something entirely different, most often being "I was created with super high-technology from the real world." That is a turn off in gaming to me, unless I a playing a game based on the real world, or a sci-fi themed game.

Its that simple.

Nothing to do with how hard it is, or isn't. I know how hard it is... my brother does the stuff for a living, and I've tried 3d CAD myself. Some things a computer just can't do... at least not yet.

Computers have brought fantasy to life. Ironically, that's what's killing RPG games. If what you say is correct, then I guess there shouldn't be any maps in mods either...since that's also computer based art.

Sounds like a self-defeating argument if you ask me.

And, no I'm not livid. Just trying to bring RPG production out of the dark ages. Ask peter, he knows what I mean though he'd agree with you on the 3-d renders. Even so, his stuff has been criticized for not being old-school, and yet has become the signature look of C&C. Hell, for that matter C&C rules stand as diffinitive proof that improvements on old-school ways bring about fantastic results! I pat you on the back for that one.
Anyhow, yes, I was a little miffed that my wife worked so hard and her material is rejected because it's not "old school" while all the while I'm saying "Yes! That hands-down beats any description of the towers I could provide! Too cool."

Brian Miller
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miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:44 am

Oh, by the way, I love old-school stuff (specifically the works of "D") as well. It's all cool in my book. Why eliminate any cool fantasy art. Personally, I say keep it all.

As a wise person once said, "It's all good."
Brian Miller
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:57 am

Actually, most maps (in my experience) are hand-drawn, and then "lined over" with a computer. They are not created by them. At least, not the ones used in published modules. How many CC2 maps do you see in published material? What about other mapping programs like AutoREALM or Map X? Probably 1% of thousands. So, the argument is valid, even if a computer enters the phase at some point. There is a major difference between "manipulated by," "enhanced by" and "created by." The second one if about the only one I can tolerate in roleplaying with slight uses of the first, and it had better not be soooo much it looks like that crap from the Immortals RPG. Most the stuff you see that is 100% computer generated is fan material, unless its for non-fantasy games and settings (even the one I mentioned is a semi-futuristic / fantasy / sci-fi / "occult" game that has more in common with World of Darkness than anything.)

Then again, it is easier to hide a computer's effect on a map (generally, and especially for such basic things as floorplans) so its possible there are thousands of them (but, being unable to tell... its really a non-issue.)

Like I said before, I like the castle... but I don't see it being used in a C&C product (unless C&C goes into other genres, which it very well could.)

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:11 am

Actually, peter is using photoshop to do the maps. Off-hand I'd guess that the obviousness of the other programs would likely raise proprietary software issues.

It seems like the issue you have more strongly concerns the "quality" of the computer art. If it's done well, one often can't tell how it's made. In the case of the 2 towers, the precision of the angles and shading reveal the C.A.D. software-based origin since only a photo or a computer can perfectly recreate and properly light 3 dimensional objects. And now there's ray-tracing which takes it to a whole new level in true-to-life realism.

Brian Miller
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:49 am

Well I say it's damned NICE!

Moriarty the Red
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:58 am

Well, I was going to say I wasn't a big fan of 3d art but then the pic loaded all the way (damn my slow dial-up!).

Wow! That is pretty damn sharp. From a personal perspective, I still prefer black and white line drawings but it is hard to say that that stronghold isn't simply awesome.

Now all my villians are disenchanted with their evil keeps.

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:59 am

The picture looks great, but IMHO, it doesn' t fit the feel/style of C&C.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:05 am

Maliki wrote:
The picture looks great, but IMHO, it doesn' t fit the feel/style of C&C.

I would tend to agree. I love the picture, but imagine the style will be an obstacle for many of us when it comes to modules.

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:45 pm

Heck, I'd have no problem buying a mod with a cover pic like that. Like many, I'm also used to seeing the classic style interior pics. But we figured since Peter has already gone well beyond that for the covers he creates, why not try a 3-d cover. Ah, well. Wasn't in the cards, I guess.

As for the mod, heh, it's stocked full of surprises and promises to be an enjoyable gaming experience.

For those wondering, the art for my first mod is being done by the TLG artists and Andrea is working on some hand-sketched new monster pics.

Laura who made the pic and digitized my hand-drawn original maps has applied to join the forum so she'll be around to respond to comments after they approve her membership (hint, hint IT support). Until then, I'll let her know at least a few people liked her pic.
Brian Miller
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dcs · Post by **dcs** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:57 pm

serleran wrote:
Actually, most maps (in my experience) are hand-drawn, and then "lined over" with a computer. They are not created by them. At least, not the ones used in published modules.

The ones used in Yggsburgh were, at least according to Darlene.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:24 pm

Damn fine pic in my opinion. I don't mind the computer generated art either. I have some pics I found on the web that really bring things to life and I wouldn't mind seeing it in a few products mixed with the older art styles.

Any way you can get your wife to alter it into a wallpaper image say 1024x768 or so?
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:39 pm

miller6 wrote:
Heck, I'd have no problem buying a mod with a cover pic like that.

Truth be told, I wouldn't either.

I wouldn't like it as interior art though because it wouldn't be color and that type of art never looks to good to me when its color is taken away.

BeZurKur · Post by **BeZurKur** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:04 pm

Hey Miller,

For me, it's not the use of the computer (that would be absurd) but about the feel inherent to the medium. In the case of 3d rendered art, there is a distinctive quality about it that says it is computer generated; the same hold true for oils, pencils, or whatever. Photoshop mimics others mediums pretty well and throws in a few twists of it's own, but the source is usually evident there too, even if it is hand drawn through a pad or mouse.

Where the 3d rendered medium is a detraction for me is in the sharp angles and perfectly even lines. Also, even the stone has a certain shiney quality that, while asthetically cool to look at, reminds the viewer it is computer generated. These are not criticisms of the piece, just observations of the medium. I think that is why this particular art is more suited for science-fiction where shine and angles enhance the feel.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:29 pm

It's a great pic and reminds of something I might see in a fantasy computer game, but it doesn't really grab me for a D&D/C&C style adventure module.
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Combat_Kyle · Post by **Combat_Kyle** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:42 pm

The pic is nice but I agree with the others that it doesn't fit with the C&C TLG style. TLG has a product identity to maintain and a 3d computer image doesn't fit with that. But nice image btw.
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miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:16 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
Damn fine pic in my opinion. I don't mind the computer generated art either. I have some pics I found on the web that really bring things to life and I wouldn't mind seeing it in a few products mixed with the older art styles.

Any way you can get your wife to alter it into a wallpaper image say 1024x768 or so?

Sure can. I'll mention it to her when she gets home. I was using it as wallpaper myself.

Brian Miller
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:54 pm

Thats a really nice piece of art, your wife should be applauded for the effort and end result.

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:26 pm

Combat_Kyle wrote:
TLG has a product identity to maintain and a 3d computer image doesn't fit with that.

The dynamics of product identity, product line identity, and corporate culture isn't an issue since it's feasible to diversify product lines while maintaining existing reputations. Corporations do it all the time.

Hey, I actually learned something from my MBA in strategic management! Maybe it was worth the money.
Brian Miller
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angelius · Post by **angelius** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:29 pm

miller6 wrote:
The dynamics of product identity, product line identity, and corporate culture isn't an issue since it's feasible to diversify product lines while maintaining existing reputations. Corporations do it all the time.

Hey, I actually learned something from my MBA in strategic management! Maybe it was worth the money.
Brian Miller

Of course it is feasible, but is it a good idea? You also can run the risk of product confusion and dilution. Companies run the risk of that while trying to diversify and can lose tons of money. Sometimes as a small company it is better to stick to what you do best and worry about diversifying your product line later when you can afford to take a hit.

I think what CK is saying is that he doesn't want any doubt what C&C is. And in his vision, a 3d computer image doesn't fit his view.

And since you're preaching to a consumer of C&C (in this case Combat Kyle), it is important to consider what Combat Kyle is saying. And what he's saying is that yes, a computer image will indeed cause product confusion. This is important to note, since he's the one that will choose or choose not to purchase the item.

I'm not trying to come off as flaming. So please don't take it the wrong way. Just giving an alternate view.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:49 pm

Well the pic is AWESOME!!

I think I would have no problem buying a mod/book with a cover like that.

However, I have come to identify Peters art as being "C&C".

The good thing is that Goodman Games has forced me to identify C&C by its border work rather than if the cover picture is Peters style.

So I think I would also have no problems with an image like this as a cover pic. Especially if it is fully mapped out inside.

In fact, I would love to see mapping like I6 Ravenloft again.

Yeah, a 3d image on the cover with "3d like" mapping inside. I am almost drooling just thinking about it.

Combat_Kyle · Post by **Combat_Kyle** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:59 pm

angelius wrote:
Of course it is feasible, but is it a good idea? You also can run the risk of product confusion and dilution. Companies run the risk of that while trying to diversify and can lose tons of money. Sometimes as a small company it is better to stick to what you do best and worry about diversifying your product line later when you can afford to take a hit.

I think what CK is saying is that he doesn't want any doubt what C&C is. And in his vision, a 3d computer image doesn't fit his view.

And since you're preaching to a consumer of C&C (in this case Combat Kyle), it is important to consider what Combat Kyle is saying. And what he's saying is that yes, a computer image will indeed cause product confusion. This is important to note, since he's the one that will choose or choose not to purchase the item.

I'm not trying to come off as flaming. So please don't take it the wrong way. Just giving an alternate view.

That is fairly close to what I am saying. Yes I so know that you can diverisfy, but I like the look of Peter's stuff to tie TLG products together. GG stuff is cool, but the differnet artwork establishes itself as a GG product (in fact all of their covers look very similar in style and GG does very well).

Like I said the pic is pretty cool, it reminds me of the 3D video games I play often. And thats the problem, it workds great for a video game feel, but for me personally (and I'm just one guy) I prefer modules to have that hand drawn feel to them (Even if they are rendered in photoshop).

You wanted input, there is my 2 cents.
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miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:15 am

What do you consider WoHA if not diversification?

I suggested diversification to Davis a month and a half ago. Seems they either liked my idea or already had it in mind.

Brian Miller
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Combat_Kyle · Post by **Combat_Kyle** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:58 am

I'm pretty sure the Judges Guild thing has been in the works for a while. And bringing in old schools like JG is awesome. Which is more important than diversification.
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Chugosh · Post by **Chugosh** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:34 am

I'll look at the art in awe and crawl back to my set of crayons. I'm not conversant enough with computers to make them grind out the pretty pictures, but I can do something aproaching my vision with the old box of colors.

As to the suitability of the art to the game: so long as they keep publishing, I'll be happy, whatever the artists use for the cover art.

Anyone want to hire me for a "My First Dungeon" cover?

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:30 am

This thread has gotten off topic. The point is the value of a module in gaming terms has little to do with the appeal of its cover pic. That's all aesthetics. Content is key. One shouldn't be judged based on the other. A module with lousy content can have a wonderful cover pic. A module with wonderful content can have a lousy cover pic.

Personally, I always went by content when buying a mod...by reading the info about the dungeon shown on the front or back cover or finding out what others had to say about it. Good pics are an eye catcher (except for the maps which need to be legible) while content determines usability and hence whether I got my money's worth.

Moral of the story: "Don't judge a mod by its cover."
Brian Miller
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