New Old Skool Gaming Material

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:05 am

Well, as far as other products are concerned, ill put it this way. The Troll Lord Games forums are primarily for Troll Lord's products and related companies. Which generally means companies producing stuff that is supporting a licensed siege engine product line.

People who come here, that's what they are looking for, and a fair number are coming here to get away from certain games. Most folks who are looking for games other than C&C already know where to go. But even when they don't, why would the TLG forums be the place to advertise?

So, bringing up products that 1) aren't produced here 2) most don't come here to buy, when they could get them elsewhere, and have plenty of other forums to talk about them in, is going to cause a disgruntled reaction from some folks.

Its kinda like signing up for a newsletter, then getting a mess of spam or junk mail one didn't sign up for, but has no 'opt out' procedure.

I appreciate that folks like to draw from many sources for their games, and that's fine. But its not very nice either to beat up on people because they have perfectly valid reasons for themselves not too do so...

In a way, it's as impolite as smoking in a non smokers home. And saying "I'm going to do it anyway, even when I know it upsets people" is even worse.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:07 am

Treebore wrote:
I know how you feel, I quit going to DF several months ago because they kept giving me flak for wishing to talk about 3E, 4E, practically anything that wasn't 1E, or 2E.

I want to be all inclusive, if the boards get too "exclusive" I quit going to them.

Actually Tree, Trav's saying he's going to come to the TLG boards less if salt keeps getting poured on his wounds.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:24 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Actually Tree, Trav's saying he's going to come to the TLG boards less if salt keeps getting poured on his wounds.

If my talking about 4E, OSRIC, etc... makes him feel like I am pouring salt in his wounds, I'm sorry, but I am not stopping. I had nothing to do with the wounds, and if he wants to hold me accountable for what they did, too bad. I will not stop. If you guys want to insist I stop, I can limit myself to the on line games section of the boards and leave all of you alone with your old pains.

I come here to talk freely, if your telling me I can't because someone can't get over old hurts that I had nothing to do with, then I have nothing more to say.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:27 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
In a way, it's as impolite as smoking in a non smokers home. And saying "I'm going to do it anyway, even when I know it upsets people" is even worse.

But what if they put up a sign in their home which says "Smoking Section" (i.e. Other Games).

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:37 am

Not telling you that you cant. But suit yourself, no complaints if someone finds one of your sore spots and wont stop picking at it. Fair is fair after all.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:38 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
But what if they put up a sign in their home which says "Smoking Section" (i.e. Other Games).

Sure, probably why "other games" is further down the page, where this topic really ought to go.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:40 am

Ayup, and I don't have a problem with that. I generally try to keep my non TLG RPG stuff down here.

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:50 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
People who come here, that's what they are looking for, and a fair number are coming here to get away from certain games. Most folks who are looking for games other than C&C already know where to go. But even when they don't, why would the TLG forums be the place to advertise?

That's speaking for others a bit there.

With all due respect, it seems to be mainly you, Peter, and Trav who respond so strongly here. Many of us are strong proponents of C&C, but don't have the grudges or pasts you have - but this thread seems to exhort a "with us or against us" feel which is quite distressing.

As to the forums, you yourself just gave mention to Goodman Games and Joe - how is that different? Did the TLG forums become designated "for the advertisement and promotion solely of TLG properties?" I see no such proclamations concerning Heroes of the Brick of other such things... and while I agree these forums are TLG's, and thus are primarily an online support tool, isn't that for the TLG/C&C community? Not just products?

Quote:
So, bringing up products that 1) aren't produced here 2) most don't come here to buy, when they could get them elsewhere, and have plenty of other forums to talk about them in, is going to cause a disgruntled reaction from some folks.

So since I used a combination of C&C mods, some older B and 1e mods, some DCC, and even WotC's The Sunless Citadel in a C&C campaign, I should not mention this on any thread for fear of a "disgruntled" reaction from someone who dislikes those 3e mods and "came here to get away from THAT game?" (Hell - I have a bad reaction to one system - but the responses I got HERE over my bad reaction to 4e were invaluable in helping me cool down and approach it's proponents better).

Quote:
I appreciate that folks like to draw from many sources for their games, and that's fine. But its not very nice either to beat up on people because they have perfectly valid reasons for themselves not too do so...

This is a 2-way street - it's also not good to instantly beat down on anyone who merely mentions the name OSRIC or any of the retro-clone games. Most who do are NEW fans of C&C and have come here looking for support for their new interest - and regardless of statements that "it's not you we're talking about," the vibe, again, comes off as "if you dare even associate then you're as bad as they are."

Trav - By this point legal arguments are mute. There was no lawsuit, Hasbro has not challenged nor attacked in any legal way the OSRIC IP, and they move pretty fast when they want to - witness the speed of cease and desist given recently to a small co. producing 4e monster cards. That part's no longer a valid argument.

EDIT - I agree completely, btw, that other forum threads are more appropriate, but that's when the thread should merely be moved by moderation with a simple "this belongs in Other Games"
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:59 am

Seskis put things a lot more eloquently than I could have and has a lot of good points.

Also:

seskis281 wrote:
So since I used a combination of C&C mods, some older B and 1e mods, some DCC, and even WotC's The Sunless Citadel in a C&C campaign, I should not mention this on any thread for fear of a "disgruntled" reaction from someone who dislikes those 3e mods

Or hell, why stop at the 3e mods? OD&D and AD&D products don't have the TLG logo stamped on them either. Seems arbitrary to only grumble about certain systems getting mentioned.

Benoist · Post by **Benoist** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:00 am

Treebore wrote:
I know how you feel, I quit going to DF several months ago because they kept giving me flak for wishing to talk about 3E, 4E, practically anything that wasn't 1E, or 2E.

I want to be all inclusive, if the boards get too "exclusive" I quit going to them.

I totally get that, and that's how it's supposed to work, really. Many of these places avoid talking about 4E, 3E and so on because many of the people visiting them want to have a place to talk about older editions.

The rationale is that, if you want to talk about 4E, you can do so on any of the other zillion of message boards dedicated to gaming out there, and they're right on that. If I want to talk OGL games, I go to say, the Paizo community. If I want to talk hardcore AD&D, I go to DF or K&K. It's all good to me, so long as I know about the rules before hand.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:03 am

Benoist wrote:
The rationale is that, if you want to talk about 4E, you can do so on any of the other zillion of message boards dedicated to gaming out there, and they're right on that. If I want to talk OGL games, I go to say, the Paizo community. If I want to talk hardcore AD&D, I go to DF or K&K.

That doesn't work well for me though. I like the people on THIS board.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:09 am

seskis281 wrote:
That's speaking for others a bit there.

Just going by what folks have posted themselves in the forums in response to the various non C&C threads that have come up.

Quote:
With all due respect, it seems to be mainly you, Peter, and Trav who respond so strongly here.

You just haven't been paying attention. Nor get the PM's I get about it.

Quote:
Many of us are strong proponents of C&C, but don't have the grudges or pasts you have - but this thread seems to exhort a "with us or against us" feel which is quite distressing.

Well, I can't do much about the perceptions of people. I rather gave that up a long time ago. But it was asked, early on in this thread, why there was a problem. I gave an answer.

Quote:
As to the forums, you yourself just gave mention to Goodman Games and Joe - how is that different?

Joe's a licensee of TLG products. As I mentioned above where I said 'folks who are licensee's of siege line products'. And I haven't seen any of Joe's fan's commit a federal crime in response to critique.

Quote:
So since I used a combination of C&C mods, some older B and 1e mods, some DCC, and even WotC's The Sunless Citadel in a C&C campaign, I should not mention this on any thread for fear of a "disgruntled" reaction from someone who dislikes those 3e mods and "came here to get away from THAT game?" (Hell - I have a bad reaction to one system - but the responses I got HERE over my bad reaction to 4e were invaluable in helping me cool down and approach it's proponents better).

Only if you don't mind the fact that, sometimes, your going to get a negative reaction.

Quote:
This is a 2-way street - it's also not good to instantly beat down on anyone who merely mentions the name OSRIC or any of the retro-clone games.

Its not good to beat down on those who don't want to associate with 4e, either, but that invariably happens first. Might pay closer attention.

Quote:
Trav - By this point legal arguments are mute. There was no lawsuit, Hasbro has not challenged nor attacked in any legal way the OSRIC IP, and they move pretty fast when they want to - witness the speed of cease and desist given recently to a small co. producing 4e monster cards. That part's no longer a valid argument.

Its still a valid argument until WOTC moves either way. But the whole thing could be perfectly legal, and there would still be perfectly valid reasons to avoid the line for some folks.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:55 am

seskis281 wrote:
That's speaking for others a bit there.

With all due respect, it seems to be mainly you, Peter, and Trav who respond so strongly here. Many of us are strong proponents of C&C, but don't have the grudges or pasts you have - but this thread seems to exhort a "with us or against us" feel which is quite distressing.

As to the forums, you yourself just gave mention to Goodman Games and Joe - how is that different? Did the TLG forums become designated "for the advertisement and promotion solely of TLG properties?" I see no such proclamations concerning Heroes of the Brick of other such things... and while I agree these forums are TLG's, and thus are primarily an online support tool, isn't that for the TLG/C&C community? Not just products?

So since I used a combination of C&C mods, some older B and 1e mods, some DCC, and even WotC's The Sunless Citadel in a C&C campaign, I should not mention this on any thread for fear of a "disgruntled" reaction from someone who dislikes those 3e mods and "came here to get away from THAT game?" (Hell - I have a bad reaction to one system - but the responses I got HERE over my bad reaction to 4e were invaluable in helping me cool down and approach it's proponents better).

This is a 2-way street - it's also not good to instantly beat down on anyone who merely mentions the name OSRIC or any of the retro-clone games. Most who do are NEW fans of C&C and have come here looking for support for their new interest - and regardless of statements that "it's not you we're talking about," the vibe, again, comes off as "if you dare even associate then you're as bad as they are."

Trav - By this point legal arguments are mute. There was no lawsuit, Hasbro has not challenged nor attacked in any legal way the OSRIC IP, and they move pretty fast when they want to - witness the speed of cease and desist given recently to a small co. producing 4e monster cards. That part's no longer a valid argument.

EDIT - I agree completely, btw, that other forum threads are more appropriate, but that's when the thread should merely be moved by moderation with a simple "this belongs in Other Games"

I agree with this completely!
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:56 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Just going by what folks have posted themselves in the forums in response to the various non C&C threads that have come up.

You just haven't been paying attention. Nor get the PM's I get about it.

Well, I can't do much about the perceptions of people. I rather gave that up a long time ago. But it was asked, early on in this thread, why there was a problem. I gave an answer.

Joe's a licensee of TLG products. As I mentioned above where I said 'folks who are licensee's of siege line products'. And I haven't seen any of Joe's fan's commit a federal crime in response to critique.

Only if you don't mind the fact that, sometimes, your going to get a negative reaction.

Its not good to beat down on those who don't want to associate with 4e, either, but that invariably happens first. Might pay closer attention.

Its still a valid argument until WOTC moves either way. But the whole thing could be perfectly legal, and there would still be perfectly valid reasons to avoid the line for some folks.

I disagree with this COMPLETELY!
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:59 am

I DO agree with Gideon, though that perhaps this discussion might be better served in the "Other Games" forum.

Just to remove clutter and keep the focus on C&C. And the occasional mention of other games seems OK too in any given thread.

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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:05 am

Rhuvein wrote:
I DO agree with Gideon, though that perhaps this discussion might be better served in the "Other Games" forum.

Just to remove clutter and keep the focus on C&C. And the occasional mention of other games seems OK too in any given thread.

Well, that's where it is now.
And folks are free to disagree with me on any point they wish. I wont hold it against em. Takes all kinds to make a world after all.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:20 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Well, that's where it is now.
And folks are free to disagree with me on any point they wish. I wont hold it against em. Takes all kinds to make a world after all.

For sure!

I plan on hugging you, the next time we meet.

Incidentally, are dresses allowed at the next Troll CON?

I have a summer blue frock picked out that should dazzle everyone!

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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:21 am

Rhuvein wrote:
For sure!

I plan on hugging you, the next time we meet.

Incidentally, are dresses allowed at the next Troll CON?

I have a summer blue frock picked out that should dazzle everyone!

I dunno? The troll dudes have all sorts of fetishes after all. Arkansas does weird things to the mind. Probably why I moved.
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Post by **Fiffergrund** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:08 pm

I let my posts in this thread speak for me.
http://www.freeyabb.com/trolllordgames/ ... llordgames

The second post (the one following the long one) is the one I'd especially like to draw attention to.

People are going to mention OSRIC and LL without a *clue* as to what happened. As a welcoming community, those people don't need to be dragged into this. We say it belongs in Other Games, and if we have a problem with the discussion, we avoid the thread. If they want to know more, we point them to the thread I linked above, but otherwise, the discussion stops.

There is absolutely NO reason why this needs to be covered, in depth, every single time an innocent bystander mentions something with one of those names. It's ridiculous, and it needs to stop.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:31 pm

Yep. Those with axes can chop trees.
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Post by **Fiffergrund** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:12 pm

serleran wrote:
Yep. Those with axes can chop trees.

Or Orcs. But anything except potential new blood to our little corner of gaming.

I swear that if this happens again I'll delete the thread outright.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:24 pm

Well, I can't say they chop orcs, Fiff... I mean, look at your avatar.
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seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:56 pm

Heh - that's a Uruk-Hai - they chop regular Orcs too!

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:22 pm

serleran wrote:
Well, I can't say they chop orcs, Fiff... I mean, look at your avatar.

And here I always assumed Fiff was the kid in the pic.

Damn.

Coleston the Cavalier · Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:49 pm

A dog dies.

We bury the dog.

Every few months we dig the dog up again

and he stinks worse every time.

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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:36 pm

Yeah, I know where I stand on it that is all I need to know.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:22 pm

All I want to point out is what Seskis already mentioned, C&C is designed to be compatible with other games. Mainly D&D, but by default its also easy to adapt to RIFTS, TRaveller, Paladium Fantasy, GURPS, etc... Even more so if people also buy Star SIEGE, which is a great tool box that provides even more explicit descriptions of how adaptable the SIEGE engine is.

So by virtue of its ease of compatibility people are going to be mentioning other games, whether they be any edition of D&D, including 3E or 4E, or their clones, such as OSRIC, LL, Sorcery and Wizardry, etc...

So C&C, by its very nature, is an all inclusive rules set, so by extension the C&C boards need to be all inclusive by its very nature.

So this idea that we can't be allowed to talk about 4E, 3E, OSRIC, or any other system has to end, especially when we talk about it in the context of how we are using it with C&C.

Plus that is good advertising for C&C, and reinforces how compatible and adaptable C&C is.

Hell, if GURPS had started out with the SIEGE engine 20 years ago I would have been their fan for the last 20 years.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:02 am

Treebore, let's get something straight here. I seriously don't have a great deal of trouble anymore reading posts about how usable material from Hasbro's games are with Castles & Crusades. I also don't have a problem with people discussing d20, especially as half the time in order to give some context to a piece of errata I have to reference the SRD. Labrynth Lord? No problem. GORE? No problem. Any of the other clones? No problem, really.

No OSRIC!

Period.

It doesn't matter how good a product is. It doesn't matter who wrote it. If it's related to that game, it is shit.

That is where I draw the line. You have made your position clear on this thread. Since you have chosen not to respect that line given your posts on this thread, the only option for me is to limit my participation on these forums.

Salud!
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GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:25 am

Geez guys! I think all this Drama is great and all but come on.

For those that are sinsative about the Big O issue. Dudes please, if you dont want to deal with this issue over and over just bail out of posts that bring it up. Remember that those here are NOT the scumbags you are mad at and have a right to think and post differantly than you. Don't go all Drama at me I realize you never really said they were or that they couldnt post ect...still your language and tone sounded harsh at times,both towards Big O(I know you don't care about that) but also towards posters here(by insulting a game they like and in a small way at least those who like those games).

For those in favor of Big O. Dudes you touched a sore subject obviously. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to realize some of our friends have issues here. Cut them some slack maybe? I mean come on, regardless of how you feel about Big O ect..you have to realize a few here have been hurt and are upset about the issue. Is the issue really something you need to push at the moment? Thats what friends do you know, take others feeling into account sometimes.

To me this wasnt about anyone saying"Dont talk about this or else!!"

It seemed more of "Please lets not talk about this because im really upset about it"

So some came back with " I'll damn well talk about it if I want!!"

Really? It's THAT important to you that you enforce your will and rights on the board above all else?

I happen to like everyone posting. I have no opinion on Osric but of respect for my friends I'll just chit chat about it later or on another board. No biggy.

Fixed after midnight spelling haha

Hope you guys all have a good weekend!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:42 am

Game Ogre, I could agree with you if this wasn't something that happened 4 or 5 years ago. I could still agree if it was the creators of OSRIC that did it.

It wasn't. It was rabid and incredibly rude fan boi's. I could agree if one of us who talk about OSRIC were one of those rude fan boi's, but as far as I know we aren't.

So to insist we not talk about a product, made by people who had nothing to do with the rudeness, talked about by people who were not involved in the rudeness, that happened about 4 years ago, isn't something I feel I should censor myself over. If anything I think its time for others to put that crap behind them and leave it there. To still give it enough credence to upset you 4 years later?

Not healthy. Get past it.

This is just as wrong as to ask me to quit shopping at my grocery store because a customer there was very rude to you. Its not the stores fault, or my fault, that they had rude customers. It was the customer who was rude and should be ostracized, not the store. So I'll keep shopping at the store and talk about the good buys I get there.

So I am sorry you feel the way you do Traveller, but I don't think I am in the wrong here. So if its important enough to you to limit your visits to this board even more, thats your choice. Its my choice not to censor myself because you can't get past something that happened years ago, with posters I don't even know, and didn't even come from the creator/owners of OSRIC.

Now if you tell me that papersandpaychecks, or one of the others involved in creating OSRIC were one of the rude participants, then I will reconsider.

But until then your insisting on censoring me over an issue that you can't get over is too much. Sorry if that angers you, but your desire to censor me angers me. So if one of us has to be angry it may as well be you, since you still insist on being angry about events from about 4 years ago.

I wish you well and I hope you get past this some day.
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