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Julian Grimm
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Post by Julian Grimm »

Treebore wrote:
Game Ogre, I could agree with you if this wasn't something that happened 4 or 5 years ago. I could still agree if it was the creators of OSRIC that did it.

It wasn't. It was rabid and incredibly rude fan boi's. I could agree if one of us who talk about OSRIC were one of those rude fan boi's, but as far as I know we aren't.

Actually, several of OSRIC's 'writers' took part in that fiasco. I know of at least three that either worked on the initial document or the first supplements that were a part of the attacks.
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Post by Treebore »

Julian Grimm wrote:
Actually, several of OSRIC's 'writers' took part in that fiasco. I know of at least three that either worked on the initial document or the first supplements that were a part of the attacks.

Did they stop? Did Papersandpaychecks make them stop? Or kick them off projects if they didn't?
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Treebore wrote:
Did they stop? Did Papersandpaychecks make them stop? Or kick them off projects if they didn't?

Heh, no.

Perhaps, if that had occurred, or the fellow who threatened to bust up Trav with a baseball bat had been thoroughly shunned, then I expect there would be less of a problem.

Oh, and had the attacks stopped entirely in 2004, it wouldn't be a big problem either. But its been ongoing on every major forum C&C fans gather to talk, since C&C was developed.

Anyhow, that's all I have to say on the matter.
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Post by Julian Grimm »

The only thing I have to add is why would the ringleader of the attackers make them stop?
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Post by Treebore »

Julian Grimm wrote:
The only thing I have to add is why would the ringleader of the attackers make them stop?

So now your saying Papersandpaychecks did personally engage in the behaviour?
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Post by Julian Grimm »

To the best of my memory, yes. I wish I had archived what went on at Raven's Keep during that time. As he was involved in the events there. Traveller may have archived some of it but I am not sure.

In my part I tried to use RK to diffuse the tensions however, things escalated quite quickly to the point that I shut the discussions down and, in a fit of anger over the failure of that deleted the threads. Personally, I have no axe to grind as all of us involved did do things we shouldn't have. However, I am trying to speak to the best of my recollections on what happened. And I do remember the names of those involved, which, I do not wish to divulge publicly as some of them and I have made some peace with over those events.

However, I will try to speak as truthfully as I can recollect about what happened up to and including the facts of who did what, who was involved and the fallout. Of which was Traveller being disciplined on Dragonsfoot for something said on Raven's Keep, My almost being disciplined for the same event, and several of us turning the OSRIC documents over to WOTC.
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Post by Julian Grimm »

I also wish to add that it would be best if both camps could finally diffuse the tensions between them. As forgiveness and peace is the higher ideal. And needed in the current climate of the hobby. However, I don't know if it could be done. Apologies would need to be made all around and I don't know if members of each 'side' would be willing to do that and let go of the conflict. As it stands now, this does ultimately, seem to be a subject best avoided. But avoiding an ignoring something only makes it worse.

A sad and unfortunate thing.
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Post by Treebore »

Wasn't the stuff on Ravens Keep a reignition of the old fight? I seem to remember some ugly stuff going on 4+ years ago over on Knights and Knaves and a site with the word "alehouse" in it.
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Post by Julian Grimm »

IIRC there was a twofold event with that. One was getting the fight out of DF and TLG respectively. The other was the attempt to diffuse. I stayed and do stay away from knights and knave not out of any disgust but as part of an agreement that I am still trying to hold to. The other forum was the grognards tavern, again IIRC. A lot of the smaller boards was where a good chunk of the real fighting went on.
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Post by Benoist »

Julian Grimm wrote:
I also wish to add that it would be best if both camps could finally diffuse the tensions between them. As forgiveness and peace is the higher ideal.

Ditto to that my friend, ditto to that.
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Post by Traveller »

Treebore wrote:
So I am sorry you feel the way you do Traveller, but I don't think I am in the wrong here. So if its important enough to you to limit your visits to this board even more, thats your choice. Its my choice not to censor myself because you can't get past something that happened years ago, with posters I don't even know, and didn't even come from the creator/owners of OSRIC.

Now if you tell me that papersandpaychecks, or one of the others involved in creating OSRIC were one of the rude participants, then I will reconsider.

But until then your insisting on censoring me over an issue that you can't get over is too much. Sorry if that angers you, but your desire to censor me angers me. So if one of us has to be angry it may as well be you, since you still insist on being angry about events from about 4 years ago.

I wish you well and I hope you get past this some day.

Papersandpaychecks

Semaj

Axe Mental

Ska

T. Foster

Premier (the buffoon on Dragonsfoot who laid that threat on the table).

Each and every last one of them were involved in the personal attacks. There are likely a few more who I can't remember, though I could take a look at Knights & Knaves Alehouse and give you a list. They all hole up there. Axe and Ska's history are both well known, since both of them attacked Castles & Crusades in its formative stages because the game was not going to be AD&D reprinted. Additionally, both of them attacked Peter because his artwork wasn't of the same style as the artwork in the AD&D books. They turned the AD&D books into religious tomes, proclaiming those who did not accept the words of Gary in those books as gospel as heretics.

I know my part in the whole fiasco as I was one of those who shipped the OSRIC documents to Wizards of the Coast, claiming the material infringes on their IP. I am to this date convinced this is the case, comments by the authors notwithstanding. The thread where this all exploded first should still be on Dragonsfoot since I specifically requested it not be deleted in order to demonstrate just how out of touch with reality these people are. I also requested it be left up in order to demonstrate Papersandpaychecks lack of action in persuading his fanbase to stop. He had an opportunity to defuse the situation himself. He failed, and in fact participated.

It isn't my board, but I have no problem insisting upon a ban on OSRIC discussion. I have very good reasons in insisting upon such a ban. But why bother saying anything since you don't give a damn about the feelings of anyone else in regards to this matter? The lack of respect is unexpected from you as well as disgusting.

Oh, and yes, I feel that strongly about this matter that I can and (likely) will sever any and all contact with this message board and these people that I have spent years fraternizing with. I have drawn the line, and I am honor bound to enforce it.
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Post by seskis281 »

Fiff asked us to stop.

This needs to stop NOW.

Regardless of what transpired, the only personal attacks and assaultive behavior is what we see here, now, from people. Having suffered crap from assholes in the past doesn't give individuals the right to dish personal insult towards members of this community who don't feel the same way or disagree with you.
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Post by moriarty777 »

John is absolutely right.

The only thing I'll add to this is this:

As much as I completely sympathize with some of those involved, I disagree on the concept of a ban. It has nothing to do with OSRIC and to be honest, I really don't care about it one way or the other.

As soon as you draw that line, the questions of 'why' or 'what is it' will come up. If they can't get the answers readily, some people will turn elsewhere for those answers. Just the concept that it is 'forbidden' will invariably point some people in that direction would it not?

On the flip side, taking a hard line stance in the name of freedom doesn't always yield the best results. Hell, that very statement could risk becoming political if some thought about it. So... let's not and leave it be.

Or at least... let's start by forgetting this thread.

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