SIEGE engine anomolies

Post by **Fiffergrund** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:26 pm

*slings poo*
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:59 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
*slings poo*

Come on dude, throw your own analysis in here. Or do I need to get Josh to come goad ya?
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Post by **Fiffergrund** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:36 pm

Oh, you mean post something on topic? Ha!

Others have covered the Ranger angle in the same fashion I would cover it. I don't want to be redundant.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:39 pm

I agree with Fiff.
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Post by **Fiffergrund** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:39 pm

Oh, and to me, the Ranger tracking ability is not supernatural in nature. It's just mundane tracking knowledge, training, and experience. It's impressive, but it's not magical. Think of Billy in "Predator". That's what a good ranger can do.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:55 pm

Treebore wrote:
You know thats a good point, and I would say at some point (6th level?) a Rangers tracking ability should enter into being within the realm of magical ability.

That's a good point, also, Tree. I think, iirc, that this happens in 3.x when the ranger gets to a certain level (and I just checked - I couldn't find anything, but I swore I remember seeing it somewhere). But yeah, an eventual ability that would allow tracking magical passage would be nice.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:23 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
Oh, and to me, the Ranger tracking ability is not supernatural in nature. It's just mundane tracking knowledge, training, and experience. It's impressive, but it's not magical. Think of Billy in "Predator". That's what a good ranger can do.

Well, that depends on how you define 'intuition'. That extra quality that goes beyond training, knowledge, and experience, that leaps beyond logic, and can pull right guesses out of the air even with inadequate data.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:04 pm

I dunno about you, but any guy who can track a gaseous vampire has to have some pretty mighty tracking skills...
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:07 pm

serleran wrote:
I dunno about you, but any guy who can track a gaseous vampire has to have some pretty mighty tracking skills...

I think a half-orc ranger with their enhanced sense of smell could follow the flatulent vampire with ease.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:09 pm

Hence, the mightiness of the nose. There are more things on a vampire than wings which flap in the night.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:22 pm

serleran wrote:
I dunno about you, but any guy who can track a gaseous vampire has to have some pretty mighty tracking skills...

Sure, the ranger can use the signs and effects of the billowing vampire as he passes to track with.

After all, a noxious wind has many secondary reaction effects.
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Aldarron · Post by **Aldarron** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:09 pm

serleran wrote:
I dunno about you, but any guy who can track a gaseous vampire has to have some pretty mighty tracking skills...

Pheww Wonder what gave it gas in the first place?
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Post by **Fiffergrund** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:13 pm

I would argue that a vampire in gaseous form can't be tracked using the ranger's Tracking ability.
Different strokes and all, but I don't like the can of worms opened when mundane things become "magical" in nature.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:14 pm

I agree with Fiff on that one.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:27 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
I would argue that a vampire in gaseous form can't be tracked using the ranger's Tracking ability.
Different strokes and all, but I don't like the can of worms opened when mundane things become "magical" in nature.

*smiles* So, I guess a vampire in gaseous form, under your interpretation, would not disturb the local wild life, nor have its presence put such critters on alert?

There's nothing 'magical' about it in that case, just the ranger noting the signs of nervous animals in the presence of a predator that is outside their ken.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:28 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* So, I guess a vampire in gaseous form, under your interpretation, would not disturb the local wild life, nor have its presence put such critters on alert?

Is the the vampire doing that or is it the ranger and his loud ass party following him?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:48 pm

Quote:
Different strokes and all, but I don't like the can of worms opened when mundane things become "magical" in nature.

It is no more "magical" than Sherlock Holmes deducing the perpetrator of a crime based on nothing more than a word on a wall, for example. There is mundane, and there is extraordinary. I would classify the ranger's tracking skill as the latter -- there are things he can do, deduct and locate, based on his knowledge of the thing he is tracking (ie, where would such and such seek shelter, how would it get there, what might it do to backtrack) that allows him to follow what others would find impossible... because, for them, it is impossible -- they simply do not know what they're looking for, or even how to look. It is not a perfect ability, naturally, since it requires a check for success, and that check can be severely modified against the ranger based on circumstances... but, it is something, in my opinion, the ranger is designed for, intended to do, in fact. If we do not allow the tracking of some "magical" things, then the ranger is weakened -- can he follow a bird in flight, or locate a swimming alligator?

I say yes, at penalty.

Others can disagree.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:21 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Is the the vampire doing that or is it the ranger and his loud ass party following him?

I assume the ranger can tell the difference between sounds of natural life being disturbed by natural life, vs unnatural life.

Animals have a wide variety of signals for different types of danger after all.

Nothing mystical about it, unless one counts a 'bump of intuition' as mystical.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:13 pm

Nah, I'm a firm believer in intuition and gut insitcts and think that should play a role. But, when tracking something like the gassy vampire it is easy to misread the signs when there is no physical trail. Even a successful check would have a % chance to lead the characters to something else in my game.

Ahhhhh! It wans't the vampire that spooked the deer it was this MASSIVE HUNGRY TROLL! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Or....

The disturbingly "animal loving" elf. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:36 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Nah, I'm a firm believer in intuition and gut insitcts and think that should play a role. But, when tracking something like the gassy vampire it is easy to misread the signs when there is no physical trail. Even a successful check would have a % chance to lead the characters to something else in my game.

Ahhhhh! It wans't the vampire that spooked the deer it was this MASSIVE HUNGRY TROLL! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Or....

The disturbingly "animal loving" elf. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

*chuckles* I still maintain that a mist of anti life would cause quite a different reaction than a plant like lumbering troll creature, and definitely different than an elf who is invisible in a natural environment cause they are more friendly too it.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:43 pm

Yeah, but they are Rangers, not Jane Goodall. Creepy vampire skeert and Creepy Troll Skeert would only have subtle nuances that most would never pick up on, even by kickass ranjah guy. Well, most kickass ranjah guys anyways. I'd let Tarzan roll.

Post by **Fiffergrund** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:46 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* So, I guess a vampire in gaseous form, under your interpretation, would not disturb the local wild life, nor have its presence put such critters on alert?

There's nothing 'magical' about it in that case, just the ranger noting the signs of nervous animals in the presence of a predator that is outside their ken.

If the passage of a gaseous vampire startles animals, there won't be any there when the ranger arrives. They will run. Quickly. And they will hide. And yes, the ranger may notice that, but it's possible that could occur for any number of reasons, including the presence of the ranger and his bumbling clod friends. It's certainly not a strong enough indicator that would allow a ranger to follow a discernable trail.

This also assumes the vampire is outdoors. What about indoors? What if animals aren't predisposed to pay attention to very light mists? What if it's foggy in the forest? What if it's smoky?

Like I said, I think it's a can of worms best left unopened.

[edit: obviously games differ, this is just how I'd handle it.]
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:40 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
Like I said, I think it's a can of worms best left unopened.

But but but... how do you fish?
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:42 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, but they are Rangers, not Jane Goodall. Creepy vampire skeert and Creepy Troll Skeert would only have subtle nuances that most would never pick up on, even by kickass ranjah guy. Well, most kickass ranjah guys anyways. I'd let Tarzan roll.

*smiles* Please ignore the assorted snickering of various mountain man and bushman types I know then.
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Post by **Fiffergrund** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:49 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* Please ignore the assorted snickering of various mountain man and bushman types I know then.

Holy *&%T! You know troll and vampire hunters??
Sorry, couldn't resist.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:54 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* Please ignore the assorted snickering of various mountain man and bushman types I know then.

I thought we were talking about C&C Rangers, not mountain men or bushmen.
Note: I'm in the camp that views Rangers as akin to Army Special Forces who infiltrate the battlefield, hunts the enemy out and destroys them*.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:18 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
I thought we were talking about C&C Rangers, not mountain men or bushmen.
Note: I'm in the camp that views Rangers as akin to Army Special Forces who infiltrate the battlefield, hunts the enemy out and destroys them*.

There's no practical difference in my mind. Tracking is part and parcel of what mountain men and bushmen are capable of. Not to mention having a working knowledge of relevant flora and fauna.

And nothing in the army ranger interpretation above contradicts what I am saying.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:23 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Not to mention having a working knowledge of relevant flora and fauna.

Working knowledge and Subtle Nuance KNowledge are two different things though.

Subtle fear nuances in animals is specialized, working knowledge is not.

Post by **Fiffergrund** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:26 pm

*slings poo* There's your physical trail!
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:34 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Working knowledge and Subtle Nuance KNowledge are two different things though.

Subtle fear nuances in animals is specialized, working knowledge is not.

This is why we have 'levels'. *swings in with the +10 axe of logic*
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