System-less / Universal / Generic TLG products?

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:06 pm

Hi Folks,

I took advantage of the recent sale a bought a few copies of Engineering Dungeons and Towers of Adventures for the GMs in my gaming group. From the product descriptions, they sounded like they could be used for any FRPG (none of the GMs in question run C&C).

This had me thinking... think there would be any sense in TLG marketing or making "universal" products? I understand that C&C stuff would be *very* easy to use in any FRPG, but I was wondering if there would be any sense specifically designing or marketing stuff that way. E.g., someone might be more inclined to buy something if they aren't worried about having to convert it.
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:12 pm

Well, much of the Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds stuff was very system-neutral, so this is something TLG has experience with. Steve will have to step up and answer whether or not the company is going to continue releasing products that are more or less system-neutral in the future.

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:33 pm

It comes up from time to time, but first we have to finish the CKG, Basic set, A series and some other odds and ends hahah

Steve
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:34 pm

There are plans.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:31 am

Indeed. It does sound like there are plans.
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maasenstodt · Post by **maasenstodt** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:52 am

My love for C&C notwithstanding, this is something I'd be very interested in seeing more of.
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:49 am

So, on a side note, do you folks thin if Engineering Dungeons or Towers of Adventure were labeled as universal it would have mattered at all?

I ask that because it seems Goodman Games "Points of Light" stuff had a decent amount of buzz. Having read a good bit of C&C stuff, I know that it what be wonderfully easy to use it in any FRPG, but I wonder if others might write C&C stuff off in that regard.

Just tossing out some thoughts....
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:02 am

Frost wrote:
So, on a side note, do you folks thin if Engineering Dungeons or Towers of Adventure were labeled as universal it would have mattered at all?

I ask that because it seems Goodman Games "Points of Light" stuff had a decent amount of buzz. Having read a good bit of C&C stuff, I know that it what be wonderfully easy to use it in any FRPG, but I wonder if others might write C&C stuff off in that regard.

Just tossing out some thoughts....

Its a point of fact that something made generic doesn't sell as well as something system specific.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:04 am

Engineering Dungeons was and is marketed as being universal -- there are very few "C&C only" references within it, and that was done on purpose. And, the last I was told, it has been one of the better selling products for the Trolls, which makes me happy.

If something is truly "systemless," I think it can actually hurt the product more than help it because people might not understand it, or immediately "get" how to use it for their game, because there are no, or few, examples of "this is how it works."
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maasenstodt · Post by **maasenstodt** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:06 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Its a point of fact that something made generic doesn't sell as well as something system specific.

I wonder if that is the case for Goodman Games and their system-free line, which now stands at four products with plans for more.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:11 pm

maasenstodt wrote:
I wonder if that is the case for Goodman Games and their system-free line, which now stands at four products with plans for more.

Its likely, but just cause something doesn't sell as well, doesn't mean it can't do well enough to support as a sideline. But your still going to see a lot more attention devoted to the products that sell the most. Just common sense.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:25 pm

As recently mentioned, I think it depends on how much support the system is supplemented and supported, too. Take GURPS for example. It's remained viable in the market because of its constant and spectacular support. The system is good, but not without flaw, however I feel that the additional support the system has makes it a pretty darn good and successful system. D20 Modern is another good example. The only problem it suffered was lack of support from its publisher (or erratic support, I should say).

It may have a correlation to what other systems and products the company in question offers. For years, GURPS was the spotlight for SJG. D20 Modern, on the other hand, was always in D&D's (and SWRPG's) shadow. If TLG is to do a generic game system, I would suggest it be compact and complete upon release, or shortly thereafter, and without too much of a promise for additional support. I would hate for SS or C&C to languish - in fact, they probably won't, so I'd hate a generic system offering to languish.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:30 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
If TLG is to do a generic game system, I would suggest it be compact and complete upon release, or shortly thereafter, and without too much of a promise for additional support. I would hate for SS or C&C to languish - in fact, they probably won't, so I'd hate a generic system offering to languish.

Well, in point of fact, we already have a system that can be used generically for any type of setting, even though its nominally sci fi. So I don't foresee much else more specific being done.
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:21 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
If TLG is to do a generic game system, I would suggest it be compact and complete upon release, or shortly thereafter, and without too much of a promise for additional support. I would hate for SS or C&C to languish - in fact, they probably won't, so I'd hate a generic system offering to languish.

To be clear, I was not suggesting TLG make their version of GURPS (although as Peter notes, the SIEGE Engine is being used for other genres). I was just wondering how system-less products would do. I had completely forgotten that the Gygaxian Worlds stuff was really that way (I guess because it was associated with d20, albeit very loosely).
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:44 pm

Frost wrote:
To be clear, I was not suggesting TLG make their version of GURPS (although as Peter notes, the SIEGE Engine is being used for other genres). I was just wondering how system-less products would do. I had completely forgotten that the Gygaxian Worlds stuff was really that way (I guess because it was associated with d20, albeit very loosely).

Actually Peter's post prior to yours is saying Star SIEGE is "Systemless" or "Generic" in that the rules of Star SIEGE can be used to do pretty much any genre, and even modified to be level based or skill based.
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:56 pm

I agree with that. I guess I'm dealing with labels rather than actual content... i.e., someone seeing a product labeled as "systemless" as opposed to one labeled as a "SIEGE Engine" game.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:31 pm

Frost wrote:
I agree with that. I guess I'm dealing with labels rather than actual content... i.e., someone seeing a product labeled as "systemless" as opposed to one labeled as a "SIEGE Engine" game.

Well, as Steve mentioned, a few things might be coming out in the future, but I'd expect mostly a concentration on the Siege line of products.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:39 pm

Or, consult serleran's Atomic Clock Enterprises [tm] which will be doing all manner of weird things.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:07 pm

serleran wrote:
Or, consult serleran's Atomic Clock Enterprises [tm] which will be doing all manner of weird things.

And yer going to use 'tickers' instead of banners to advertise it eh?
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