saxon weapons

crom10 · Post by **crom10** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:08 am

I have been reading about Saxons and Normans in preperation for my England 1071 Ad campaign and found a few more weapons to add to my campaign and wondered what you guys thought...

I had to stop typing guys for a few moments as I heard my organic garbage bin being pushed over by that raccoon again!! I didn't see it but I know it's out there in the night. This time I placed the organic container against the fence flanked by the recycling container and the garbage one, put two bricks on top and stacked a couple of the old-school recycling bins in front. That should keep that bothersome bugger out!

Onward, the Saxons had there own swords which was their most coveted weapon but it was only used by the warrior class and leaders and were greatly valued if they were old or belonged to a famous warrior in the past. The first Saxon sword was a variation of the Roman Spatha, having a broad, two edged blade and a rounded point. The hilt was plain and virtually without a crossguard.

This sounds like an early broad sword and I am going give it a 2d4 for damage. It will also be a sword like this one that will be passed down to my nephew Rob's Saxon Ranger character named Wulfric by his father upon his death bed, as was the practice at the time and as described in CGAA. This paticular sword has been in the family for generations.

By the 8th century, the Saxon swords took a new design. They were still the same kind of blade but much stronger, with a wide shallow groove down the centre of both sides to lighten the blade without loss of strength. Blades were imported and the hilts added in England with the cross gaurd design and the three or five lobed pommel to counterbalance the heavier blade. Some of these sword hilts had small rings attached to them by a loop rivetted to the end of the pommel. It is believed that such rings could have been awarded for valour.

Heavy war clubs were also mentioned and was used through out all the social class levels and even the Norman KNights carried them. I see these as being bigger than the standard club, reinforced and with studs or spikes added for extra damage. I will give it a 1d10 for damage.

There is also the very common Scramasax which was a single edged knife used to finish off a felled opponent. It's length varied and the blade broad and heavy. I will give it the same damage as the sax the CGAA, which is 1d4+1. It would be a great off hand weapon. I also think wizards and illionists can use it. You can an example of one here; http://www.gunnarsanvil.com/images/prod ... masax.jpeg

There is more to disscuss but I think thats it for now.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:32 am

It sounds like your early Saxon weapon is nearly identical to the tapered broadsword. The only difference being that the typical tapered broadsword tapered down to a point. It had essentially no guard, though.
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:18 am

Langseax = Saxon version of the Spatha

Scramseax = Saxon version of the Semi-Spatha/shortsword

Seax = Saxon longknife

At least this is my understanding of the weapons.

Edit: Fixed where I had made a boneheaded mistake.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:35 am

Interesting stuff, fellas.

I find the inclusion of the club interesting. 3rd Edition included a similar weapon, naming it a greatclub and making it a 2-handed weapon. Is this version a two-hander, crom?
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Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:53 am

Quote:
Interesting stuff, fellas.

You took the words right out of my mouth!

Don't forget the spear, and I believe there were both thrusting and throwing versions of the spear used by the viking and Saxon.

Also the throwing axe, battle axe and two handed axe - by the way I've just found out it was a much faster and versatile weapon than I first thought.

In addition to the war club, there was also the "bar mace" -fourish metal bars welded together- From what I've seen it looks to be a nasty crushing weapon!

Hope the game goes well & I look forward to hearhing the updates, if you can post them
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crom10 · Post by **crom10** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:25 am

"I find the inclusion of the club interesting. 3rd Edition included a similar weapon, naming it a greatclub and making it a 2-handed weapon. Is this version a two-hander, crom?"

Yes Lord Dynel. The HEavy War club is a two-hander. Too bad none of my players picked it.

Keolander is 100% correct with the spelling of the Saxon weapons which also appeared in the osprey books I own. This is such facinating stuff, but I think you guys know more about this time period than I do.

Lurker, there were thrusting and throwing spears and all the axes you mentioned are all covered in CGAA and the Osprey books. Save the bar mace you mentioned! It sounds kick ass! And was this weapon around in 1071? Would it do 1d10 or 1d12 damage?

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CKDad · Post by **CKDad** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:18 pm

Have you taken a look at any pictures of the Bayeux Tapestry? I got to see it during my trip to Normandy last year, and seem to recall seeing both spears and pole axes of some sort, along with the ubiquitous swords. It was made within living memory of William's invasion of England and generally regarded as an excellent and accurate depiction of life, arms and armor of the period.
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:39 pm

Lurker wrote:
Don't forget the spear, and I believe there were both thrusting and throwing versions of the spear used by the viking and Saxon.

The Spear and the Javelin. You primarily used the spear, but carried 3 javelins as 'battle openers'.

Quote:
Also the throwing axe, battle axe and two handed axe - by the way I've just found out it was a much faster and versatile weapon than I first thought.

The throwing axe, or hand axe, was the Francisca that was made famous in earlier centuries carried by Frankish and other Germanic tribesman when they settled in the Roman Empire. The 2-handed axe could be either the Dane Axe or the Bearded Axe.

Quote:
Hope the game goes well & I look forward to hearhing the updates, if you can post them

Indeed, so would I. Personally, I prefer a setting that is Late Roman/Migration Era (5th to 9th Centuries) as far as technology. Sort of a mix of Late Roman and Carolingian Europe. Basically, the Heroic Age of Beowulf, Sigurd and The Nibelungs etc. No plate armour, courtly love, monolithic religions or any of the other traditional trappings of D&D.
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crom10 · Post by **crom10** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:16 pm

I was looking a picture of the bar mace here; http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2430

Yep, I'm adding this to the list!! Now to figure out damage and the ability of the mace to break swords and crush armor. Any suggestions?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:21 pm

Damage = 1d8+1. Break stuff = you can attack a weapon with the mace. You must hit the target's AC + 6. If you succeed, the weapon must make a saving throw to resist being broken, using your Base to Hit as the difficulty; you cannot break a magic weapon unless your mace is at least the same enchantment bonus (that is, to break a +2 sword you must hit it with a bar mace +2).
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crom10 · Post by **crom10** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:25 pm

CKDad, i've seen pictures of the Bayue Tapestry or parts of it rarther in books and as you said, experts say it is the best representation of the kinds of weapons and armor used at the of the Battle of Hastings. But you got to see it live and up close!! I'm jealous!

As depicted in the tapestry, the spear was the main weapon of the time even amongst the warrior class.

So does anyone else know of any other abscure weapons of that time I should know about?

crom10 · Post by **crom10** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:27 pm

Thanks for the suggestion Serleran!! As always, you are quike on the draw!

CKDad · Post by **CKDad** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:44 pm

crom10 wrote:
CKDad, i've seen pictures of the Bayue Tapestry or parts of it rarther in books and as you said, experts say it is the best representation of the kinds of weapons and armor used at the of the Battle of Hastings. But you got to see it live and up close!! I'm jealous!

Definitely a remarkable experience, and the museum's display is excellent. No personal pictures as photography isn't generally allowed in the tapestry gallery proper, to help preserve the tapestry.

Quote:
As depicted in the tapestry, the spear was the main weapon of the time even amongst the warrior class.

Spears were definitely the predominant weapon I recall, though as I said there were quite a few pole-axes of some sort. Many figures bore swords as well as spears. I don't recall seeing any javelins depicted.

Long chainmail byrnies seemed to be the usual armor on both sides, and of course the Norman helmets .

Another point of the invasion that surprised me was the small size of the boats used to cross the channel. There's an example in front of the museum which if memory serves was actually test-sailed across the channel, built from measurements extrapolated from the tapestry. It's only about 20-25 feet long! Some doctrinal vestige of the Norman's Viking heritage, perhaps? Though this didn't resemble any depiction of a classic Viking longboat that I've come across.
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Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:02 am

Quote:
the Francisca

I thought the vikings had a slightly different version, but that is close enough in game play.

Quote:
I was looking a picture of the bar mace here; http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2430

Bingo that's the one. Every time I see it I think how simple but brutal it looks.

As for the war club, I had a military history mag a few years back that had a great picture of a warrior ( I believe a Norman or Saxon knight) in front of a shield wall armed with a brutal looking club. I'll look and see if I can find it...

Serl, great rule, I'm adding it to my growing list of your good ideas! by the way how does it compare to "disarming" by the rules? My PHB isn't close at hand, & baby v2 is fighting sleep so I can't goo look it up
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Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:12 am

Found the pict, well something close enough
http://www.angelfire.com/mb2/battle_has ... ovell.html
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crom10 · Post by **crom10** » Fri May 01, 2009 5:28 am

Lurker, great pics !!! I love 'em! I pictured the Heavy War club as being bigger than the one depicted in the sketch and painting with spikes or metal studs and welded with two hands. It would do 1d10 damage. The Bar Mace will do 1d10 damage as well in my game and I will follow the rest of the rules Serleran outlined.

I read that Bishop Odo used a club or mace because of strict religious doctrine against spilling blood. Is this what gave Mr. Gygax the idea for the Cleric? Bishop Odo?

crom10 · Post by **crom10** » Fri May 01, 2009 5:29 am

Lurker, great pics !!! I love 'em! I pictured the Heavy War club as being bigger than the one depicted in the sketch and painting with spikes or metal studs and welded with two hands. It would do 1d10 damage. The Bar Mace will do 1d10 damage as well in my game and I will follow the rest of the rules Serleran outlined.

I read that Bishop Odo used a club or mace because of strict religious doctrine against spilling blood. Is this what gave Mr. Gygax the idea for the Cleric? Bishop Odo?

crom10 · Post by **crom10** » Fri May 01, 2009 5:32 am

Incidentally, one of my players is running Omote's Halfling racial class and the character's name is Odo!

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 01, 2009 2:16 pm

Lurker wrote:
Serl, great rule, I'm adding it to my growing list of your good ideas! by the way how does it compare to "disarming" by the rules? My PHB isn't close at hand, & baby v2 is fighting sleep so I can't goo look it up

The breaking rule is comparable to the disarming rule, but modified since it doesn't actually disarm (technically) -- it leaves you with a broken weapon. Also, with disarming, if you're good enough, you can remove a magical weapon from the hand of your foe, even if you don't have one yourself -- that did not make sense to me for actually destroying the thing.

Thank you for saying it was a nice rule. If you use it, let me know how it plays.
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Fri May 01, 2009 8:58 pm

crom10 wrote:
I read that Bishop Odo used a club or mace because of strict religious doctrine against spilling blood. Is this what gave Mr. Gygax the idea for the Cleric? Bishop Odo?

Yes it is where he got the idea, but it is a historical myth and fabrication, if often repeated. Read more on the subject here: Cleric as an Archetype.

Keolander wrote:
Langseax = Saxon version of the Spatha

Scramseax = Saxon version of the Semi-Spatha/shortsword

Seax = Saxon longknife

I do not think a "langseax" is the Saxon equivalent of a "spatha", but literally a long bladed seax, which would be single edged, and likely broken backed. In Lazamon's Brut the lang seax is always distinguished from the sword to the best of my memory. That is not Old English, of course, which would require a more thorough survey to discover the usage in. The terms are not standardised, so the above list is probably quite misleading.

crom10 wrote:
Heavy war clubs were also mentioned and was used through out all the social class levels and even the Norman Knights carried them. I see these as being bigger than the standard club, reinforced and with studs or spikes added for extra damage. I will give it a 1d10 for damage.

Typically, such weapons are known as "maces".

crom10 wrote:
I have been reading about Saxons and Normans in preparation for my England 1071 Ad campaign and found a few more weapons to add to my campaign and wondered what you guys thought...

I recommend this website if you want to learn more about the Saxons via the internet: Regia Anglorum and this one for Vikings (mainly the military stuff is useful for Saxons): Hurstwic.

You might also be interested in this thread: Romans, Normans, and Saxons
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