What really makes a good RPG?

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:25 pm

I mean seriously... everyone has their own opinion on this but in your mind what are the "key" concepts that work well together?

For me it's:

Good archetypes + ease of rules + quick combat

How about you?
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:28 pm

It all revolves around a phrase I have been using ever since 2E came out, "Simple and gets the job done."

The only games that I like more complexity in because the depth of flavor added is worth it are True20, L5R, and Shadowrun. Oh, and EpicRPG.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:30 pm

For me it generally depends on the genre.

For Fantasy I consider a class/level system a "must have" aspect. Combine that with easy to run combat and you are golden.

Games with guns? I usually don't want hit points and want a system a bit more complex then I want with my fantasy.

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:25 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
...For Fantasy I consider a class/level system a "must have" aspect. Combine that with easy to run combat and you are golden...

I halfway agree with this. I do like class based systems but WFRP and WFRP2 are level-less and I couldn't be happier with this system. I still like levels a-la C&C, but I don't require em.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:33 pm

The implementation in WFRP of a level-less system is awesomely done and an acceptable method of breaking the norm. Truly kickass gaming.

The only reason my group doesn't play more WFRP is because (and this is weird) the names. I can't get them to stop rolling their eyes or chuckling at some of the names in the game. Same reason I can't get them into Airhde.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:52 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
The implementation in WFRP of a level-less system is awesomely done and an acceptable method of breaking the norm. Truly kickass gaming.

The only reason my group doesn't play more WFRP is because (and this is weird) the names. I can't get them to stop rolling their eyes or chuckling at some of the names in the game. Same reason I can't get them into Airhde.

Show them maps of France, Germany, Spain, Norway, Finland, Russia, and its former republics. Then tell them to quit being back woods hicks that can't even understand names in their own world and broaden their horizons.

People have the same complaint about Kalamar. Its obvious to me which people have never gone to a foreign country. Truly foreign. I am not talking England, Canada, or Australia here. I am talking go somewhere that hardly anyone speaks English. When your standing there wondering how the hell you can even ask for water, or to find/order some kind of food you will find edible, and maybe realize that dry, crunchy, yet tasty meat on your "El supremo" pizza is "el gato", then maybe why those weird words make things so cool, and foreign, will become obvious to them.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:00 pm

Imaginative players. Without that, no rpg is good.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:12 pm

Treebore wrote:
Show them maps of France, Germany, Spain, Norway, Finland, Russia, and its former republics. Then tell them to quit being back woods hicks that can't even understand names in their own world and broaden their horizons.

It has nothing to do with broadening their horizons or a lack of understanding that some of the names come from real world sources. It does have everything to do with the fact that some foreign names sound funny when you are playing a game using the English language.

As for KoK, you can't convince me there weren't a hundred better names to give the Fhokki in a game they were printing in the English language.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:27 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
It has nothing to do with broadening their horizons or a lack of understanding that some of the names come from real world sources. It does have everything to do with the fact that some foreign names sound funny when you are playing a game using the English language.

As for KoK, you can't convince me there weren't a hundred better names to give the Fhokki in a game they were printing in the English language.

Are you familiar with the Finnish language? I can't decide which language hurts my brain more, Finnish, Russian, or Chinese.

Of course the words sound funny/alien, for all intents and purposes they are alien. Problem is you are the alien, not the people around you sounding funny. Your the one who doesn't fit. Your the one who sounds funny. The funny sounding people are what is normal around here.

Thats what those funny words can be used to show. The PC is the alien here. They are the ones who sound funny.

Thats one thing I love the internet and Google for. I look up a finnish language translator, or German, French, Spanish, Russian, etc... and then work up several common sentences, like, "Hello, how are you? Where are you from? What si your name?" and use them on my players when they go somewhere they, or most of them, don't speak the language.

Say those lines to them a few times, drive home that they are the ones out of place, that they are the ones who don't belong, the "funny" nature of those words goes away.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:37 pm

Funny sounding words aren't required to do that however. Especially at the expense of possibly creating a suspension of disbelief.

I'll use the Hyborian Age as an example right now because I've been reading a lot of Howard and the Conan RPG lately. The Hyborian Age has a absolute slew of cultures and different people but the names used don't lead to a huge amount of words or names that sound funny to the English speaking ear. These names just as easily convey the foreign nature of another culture, I just think game designers should pay more attention in their name choosing.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:49 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Funny sounding words aren't required to do that however. Especially at the expense of possibly creating a suspension of disbelief.

I'll use the Hyborian Age as an example right now because I've been reading a lot of Howard and the Conan RPG lately. The Hyborian Age has a absolute slew of cultures and different people but the names used don't lead to a huge amount of words or names that sound funny to the English speaking ear. These names just as easily convey the foreign nature of another culture, I just think game designers should pay more attention in their name choosing.

Thats because Howard was a English speaking writer. You want authentic foreign words start with reading maps and look at their names for their countries. For instance, do you think the Saudi's call their country "Saudi Arabia". They do, but not in English like we do. When they say their countries name, in their language, it sounds like like they said a whole bunch of some kind of baby talk. Total nonsense. Sounds nothing like "Saudi Arabia", thats the English translation of their countries name.

China is the english way of saying the name, it isn't how the Chinese say their countries name. Same with Russia, and practically every other country. So don't look for an "english language" map, find maps done in their language.

I bet if Hyboreans really existed they wouldn't say "Hyborea", thats the english translation. They may say "Hyvorghea".
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:55 pm

Treebore wrote:
Thats because Howard was a English speaking writer.

And that is exactly my point.

So are the Trolls, Kenzer and Black Industries. And they are largely marketing their games to an English speaking market.

ssfsx17 · Post by **ssfsx17** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:23 pm

My personal opinions:

1. The writers really care about the atmosphere, mood, etc. Even if they believe that a game should be a light-hearted social event, they should still passionately care about the game being conducive to that, e.g. the Settlers of Catan

2. The writers are focused on accomplishing specific goals. They explicitly reject the kitchen sink. More rules and crunch for the sake of it is never good.

3. The writers have a good sense of what happens when you actually try to play or run a game. God only knows how many well-intentioned RPGs I've seen which were purely theoretical, not to mention the trashy rules I used to write when I was a teen.

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:50 pm

For me, it's very simple, do I have fun playing the game.

R-
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:56 pm

What really makes a good RPG?

the people you play with.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:25 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Imaginative players. Without that, no rpg is good.

Dang! I was going to say that! Actually, I was going to say 'Good players' -- but the intent was the same! I also see others shared a similar sentiment!

M
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:41 pm

Me. If I play it, it is good. If I don't, then it is not... at least as far as I am concerned. Someone else may like it, and that is great. I don't have to, nor does anyone have to like what I do.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:17 pm

The best part of a good RPG is the players/GM you play with. For agreat GM, nearly any piece of crap RPG can be made indepth, and adventurous. For players, it doesn't matter what piece of crap RPG you are playing, players make a game fun.

-O
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:20 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
The implementation in WFRP of a level-less system is awesomely done and an acceptable method of breaking the norm. Truly kickass gaming.

The only reason my group doesn't play more WFRP is because (and this is weird) the names. I can't get them to stop rolling their eyes or chuckling at some of the names in the game. Same reason I can't get them into Airhde.

My group has the same problem with Airhde, I like the depth and feel but have a hard time with some of the names myself.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:20 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
For me it generally depends on the genre.

For Fantasy I consider a class/level system a "must have" aspect. Combine that with easy to run combat and you are golden.

+1
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:33 pm

Treebore wrote:
Show them maps of France, Germany, Spain, Norway, Finland, Russia, and its former republics. Then tell them to quit being back woods hicks that can't even understand names in their own world and broaden their horizons.

People have the same complaint about Kalamar. Its obvious to me which people have never gone to a foreign country. Truly foreign. I am not talking England, Canada, or Australia here. I am talking go somewhere that hardly anyone speaks English. When your standing there wondering how the hell you can even ask for water, or to find/order some kind of food you will find edible, and maybe realize that dry, crunchy, yet tasty meat on your "El supremo" pizza is "el gato", then maybe why those weird words make things so cool, and foreign, will become obvious to them.

We're from West Virginia, we can't help being back wood hicks. (And I had the same problem with Kalamar)
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zacharythefirst · Post by **zacharythefirst** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:47 pm

People, then Setting, then System.

Honestly, the biggest thing for me is inspiration. Does an RPG inspire me to mosey up to the gaming table? Does it get me fired up about playing? If so, do the rules follow through on that promise shown? Are the rules designed with ease of learning and enough slack to let me run with it?
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mabon5127 · Post by **mabon5127** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:01 am

concobar wrote:
What really makes a good RPG?

the people you play with.

In my youth "Good" = system crunch

In my middle age "Good" = people I'm with

As I age "Good" = what my kids enjoy playing.

Morgan

Hrolfgar · Post by **Hrolfgar** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:36 am

People playing the game make the rpg work. That and a good gm, so my campaigns are not worth a damn
I don't agree that class/level are necessary for a good fantasy game. Outside of C&C and D&D I haven't played a class/level based game that I like. I've had many enjoyable games using RQ and Stormbringer. I like Pendragon and Ars Magica as well

I agree with DD that alot of published campaigns names could be better.

The problem is that most people, myself included have trouble coming up with good names. I've got a small stack of crappy, poorly named campaign maps I've drawn over the years.

Howard and Tolkien in IMO were very good at coming up with good names. But even theirs are highly derivative of real world names.

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:58 am

You guys are right PEOPLE make the games but is there a way to facilitate that through the game system? Or is it strictly a social thing?
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Hrolfgar · Post by **Hrolfgar** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:29 am

angelius wrote:
You guys are right PEOPLE make the games but is there a way to facilitate that through the game system? Or is it strictly a social thing?

The rules are a compromise made between the players and GM. I started to say the rules should be easily understandable by all the players and should for the most part stay out the way. But that is just my bias. Some people might like playing with complex rules.

Troll Lord Games

What really makes a good RPG?

What really makes a good RPG?

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