Does it make sense for Assassin to not be able to pick locks

Wulfgarn · Post by **Wulfgarn** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:34 am

As I posted in the title

Why cant Assassins open locks?

Either its an oversight or a Simple game balance issue.

Whu go rogue when you can go assassin?

I thought about this because it makes little sense at all the an Assassin would not learn to pick a lock.

They would need to do so to get into various places so they can take out thier target.

So I was thinking that Rogues should be able to use various items of a magickal nature - With a check ofcoarse based on the spell level of the item in question

Wanted to throw this out to you all and hear what it is are your thoughts

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:40 am

Assassins have been a fairly popular class in my C&C game and no, I don't think they need to be able to pick locks.

They are assassins, not thieves.

Wulfgarn · Post by **Wulfgarn** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:55 am

Ok - how does an assassin get into a locked up house to exsanguinate his victm

I also really enjoy Playing Assassins - as is- just common sense cries out on this point.

even if it were at negative or increased CL

It is propably a game balance issue

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:56 am

An assassin, played properly, will not need to pick locks -- he will either kill you before you close the door, ir he has a key (or, he makes a mold of it and has a key forged.) Also, acid works. The assassin may not care about not breaking and entering, as long as it cannot be tracked back to him. So, no, I don't think they "need" it, but having it makes them a lot more powerful.

Really, some things, like picking locks, are possible by any character, so the only real advantage is that the thief / rogue can get by without having to take a lot of time to do it... he doesn't have to plan ahead, for example, if he comes against a barred and locked vault. The assassin, on the other hand, would need to know the full layout. Naturally, it is to both of their advantage to plan beforehand, but when things change (and the door is now locked), the assassin takes the brute method or goes to Plan B -- the thief just says "screw you," picks the lock, and then continues (he switches to plan B if he fails to open the door.)

Mostly, then, it is attitude.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri May 01, 2009 1:00 am

Wulfgarn wrote:
Ok - how does an assassin get into a locked up house to exsanguinate his victm

Windows, disguise, trickery, bluffing his way in and there's always good ol' fashioned brute force. An assassin thwarted by a locked door needs to reevaluate his career choice.

Does the victim never leave his house? Plenty of ways to kill him outside of the home as well.

If it just "has" to be at the house, a little contact poison on the door handle and be on your merry way.

An assassin does NOT need to pick locks

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 01, 2009 1:06 am

One other thing: an assassin who gets caught and shut into prison under manacle and chain is going to have to find another way out, likely a very difficult way, so he has more incentive to not get caught... however, rogue who gets the same treatment can escape much more easily, so he can afford a capture or two, though he's not going to like it.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri May 01, 2009 1:09 am

Why would an assassin need to pick a lock if he can just walk in the door disguised as a servant?

Sides, there's no reason an assassin couldn't try and pick a lock, he just wont be as good at it, ultimately, as the thief.
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paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Fri May 01, 2009 3:47 am

Assassin operate as thieves two levels lower in AD&D. I believe this might have some bearing on expectations of the class in C&C. FWIW, I never noticed that until it was brought up here.

Wulfgarn · Post by **Wulfgarn** » Fri May 01, 2009 5:50 am

That was kind of where I was comming from - but like I mentioned I really thiknk it game balance - Rogue would deffenately fall by the way side if assassins get to jimmy locks with the best of them

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri May 01, 2009 10:26 am

Wulfgarn wrote:
That was kind of where I was comming from - but like I mentioned I really thiknk it game balance - Rogue would deffenately fall by the way side if assassins get to jimmy locks with the best of them

I think you hit on the mechanical part of the decision, Wulf. Indeed, thay pick a rogue, if an assassin could do all the important stuff a rogue can an still get the ability to assassinate. The "roleplay" reasons that the guys hit on earlier make the decision on not giving them open locks make sense IMHO - to me the assassin would have spent more time in not being noticed and honing his killing skills (poison use, casing targets, assassinate, back stabbing, etc.) and less time doing some of the mechanical stuff (like opening locks). I almost removed Traps from assassins, but later changed my mind, seeing how trap use could be considered a killing tool.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri May 01, 2009 10:37 am

The Assassin IMO would strike when the mark became accessible. If the mark is rarely accessible, the fee just becomes that much higher for when he does.

But previous posters are is correct, an assassin could always break in or find some different means to get close to his target. This is what makes playing an assassin interesting after all.

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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Fri May 01, 2009 11:05 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Windows, disguise, trickery, bluffing his way in and there's always good ol' fashioned brute force. An assassin thwarted by a locked door needs to reevaluate his career choice.

Does the victim never leave his house? Plenty of ways to kill him outside of the home as well.

If it just "has" to be at the house, a little contact poison on the door handle and be on your merry way.

An assassin does NOT need to pick locks

The assassin could light the house on fire and then get the victim as they flee, or later, when they are checking into their hotel.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:14 pm

Relaxo wrote:
The assassin could light the house on fire and then get the victim as they flee, or later, when they are checking into their hotel.

That's a good one!
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 01, 2009 2:29 pm

That is also how my wife, who is playing a halfling assassin, killed the town sheriff. She set his house on fire, and then waited for him to run away, and took him down on the way to the hotel. Then, she stole his horse (using some magic -- she's an illusionist multiclass combo) and offered it to the knight (who had lost his to a sabretooth). The knight refused. And, she's picked a few locks... just not as well as our new-found thief companion. She's glad she has that mending spell, though... every time a lockpick breaks, she can put it together again.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Fri May 01, 2009 4:30 pm

An assassin who chooses Int as a prime should be able to pick most locks. (CL 1 or so).

Most people dont have big locks the way evil tyrants do and if they did and any assasin (or thief) could regularly pick it then I would wonder why locksmiths even made money.
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anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Fri May 01, 2009 7:35 pm

Locks are on chests, not doors.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri May 01, 2009 7:45 pm

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
Locks are on chests, not doors.

They aren't? Then I better tell the thingies that require keys to open them on my doors that they aren't what they thought they were!
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Wulfgarn · Post by **Wulfgarn** » Fri May 01, 2009 11:59 pm

I have greatly enjoyed following this thread.

It has answered my question well past that of my expectation thanks!

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat May 02, 2009 12:04 am

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
Locks are on chests, not doors.

I got a lock on a girls chest once, I don't remember much after that.
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Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Sat May 02, 2009 1:47 am

Quote:
I got a lock on a girls chest once, I don't remember much after that.

You just made me laugh good Irish Red beer out my nose! Tooooooo funny!
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Wulfgarn · Post by **Wulfgarn** » Sat May 02, 2009 2:09 am

Good one Peter

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat May 02, 2009 2:20 am

Course, Im going to be at the local renaissance faire this weekend. Ample opportunity to unlock some rather impressive chests.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun May 03, 2009 6:50 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Course, Im going to be at the local renaissance faire this weekend. Ample opportunity to unlock some rather impressive chests.

Indeed.

CharlieRock wrote:
An assassin who chooses Int as a prime should be able to pick most locks. (CL 1 or so).

I think this was passed over, but this makes some pretty good sense. I think, expanded out, makes for some darn good reasoning considering if an assassin takes intelligence as prime, not only does he get a couple of his skills easy (traps and poison), but he's also picking locks at a CB of 12. He might not be able to add his level, but this is a nice side-benefit from the intelligence prime, and it makes for a lock-picking assassin. Winner all around, IMHO.
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phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:22 pm

I think that Assassins should be able to pick locks... unfortunately, game balance is a problem...

If want to be able to pick locks, and still Assassinate stuff... play a Thief who Assassinates people... kinda like in 2E lol.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:20 am

IIRC, 1st Edition AD&D assassins had the same abilities as thieves, but had them at a lower level. That's easy to do when you have a big, honking percentage chart. How can that carry over to C&C?

The only thing I could imagine is to allow them all the same abilities, but they can only add half their level to their checks. The other way is how the Trolls did it - give them some of the rogue's abilities, and have them follow the unified rules for SIEGE checks. I think they did fine, but I will admit, them not having it is a bit...odd.

The only thing i can suggest is what I already did - if you feel like your assassin should be able to pick locks, give the intelligence prime. It won;t be as good, but it should suffice for most locks.
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