Not trying to bring up a sore subject, but...

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:40 pm

Sir Ironside wrote:
Your not missing much, but to each his own. Of course that rant would have started a intense flame war, where it be me against all the defenders of faith. Of course I'd win cause they'd get really pissed off.

Thanks, so far it has been good. I knew this was gonna be a good forum when I didn't get the, your a newbie so shut your mouth, your opinion doesn't matter until you've been in the board for awhile. (Which then they'd receive the Captian Kirk negotiation from me.) That is so prevelant at other forums... and I sometimes forget that a mod has made a post, cause I'm not the most observant and I don't always see the mod designation under their name... which is totally cool.

So, again thanks.

Yeah, when I received my permanent life time ban I felt like I won too. Sure didn't feel like I lost. The only thing I regret not being able to do is rip apart their dumb ass staff reviewers, again an instance where they talk like they know what they are talking about, but to someone who actually knows the facts, they are idiots.

The problem is there are some good people over there, so it obfuscates the underlying systemic idiocy of the moderators and their hard core.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed May 06, 2009 9:12 pm

Okay. Lets not spend pages on the evil moderators at other forums shall we?
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed May 06, 2009 9:14 pm

Yeah, we have plenty of them here right, Peter?
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed May 06, 2009 9:42 pm

serleran wrote:
Yeah, we have plenty of them here right, Peter?

Moderators around here are down right saints in comparison.
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papercut · Post by **papercut** » Thu May 07, 2009 1:27 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Okay. Lets not spend pages on the evil moderators at other forums shall we?

OL Twenty buck can bring some of JR's BBQ direct from Oklahoma! I hear the Chipotle Catsup is amazing.
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Thu May 07, 2009 1:51 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Okay. Lets not spend pages on theAre A evil moderators at other forums shall we?

Are Admins fair game then?

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu May 07, 2009 10:38 am

Well, these posts have been very informative, at least the ones concerning RPGnet.

Moving on, all I want to say about the 4e reviewer (which I think I said already) is that it seems that he says a lot of things that have been brought up by a number of people. I think it's interesting when a lot of people from many, many different "places" all say the same thing about a givern subject. Again, maybe it's some nefarious conspiracy, but I like to think about it a little more realistically than that.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu May 07, 2009 4:55 pm

Back to the topic:

I've pretty much given up on Gyagax Games. If they get something done I'll look. Until then I have other pursuits to follow.
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TheMetal1 · Post by **TheMetal1** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:07 pm

I've clicked over to the GG Forums periodically since it started, never set up an account, just lurking. They haven't had really any news since the December/January.

I wish them the best in whatever the endevaours are. Personally, I would love to seem them do Castle Zagyg like Green Ronin is doing Freeport with the Trolls back in the lead creating it specifically for Castles & Crusades as IMHO Gary intended, and then do supplements for different systems (like the Savage World's Freeport Companion, only this would be the Savage Worlds Castle Zagyg Companion).

If I were Gail, I'd have Wizard's of the Coast release join in the fun too, with them releasing "Grey Hawk" but with all 4E stuff. That way you get all the systems playing.

Of course then you have the challenge of Resouces what gets held up with the Trolls picking up Zagyg again (No holds ups on CKG!)- but at the very least with GG doing Lejendary Adventures Companion, Trolls doing the rest of Castles as originally promised, and then, Wizards basically produces the same thing but under Grey Hawk verse Zagyg you'd have three companies and I think Pinnacle and Green Ronin would join in to publish the companions for Savage Worlds and True20 respectively. What would be cooler is where Gary had done varient maps/ideas - Zagyg has one set, while Greyhawk has the other set. Goodness if there were even more varients, let the other systems run with publishing those changes, then you'd really get some cross pollenization, and we as the readers/players would get to see Castle Zagyg in all its different forms. That alone would have collectors jumping at the other products.

I could easily see Paizo jumping on the project for Pathfinder and It would be interesting to see a Palladium Megaverse Castle Zagyg Companion! (I'd say Palladium Fantasy, but somehow a glitterboy would end up romping thru the dungeon of the Archmage at somepoint, might as well prepare for it with megadamage stats!)

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu May 07, 2009 11:28 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
Back to the topic:

I've pretty much given up on Gyagax Games. If they get something done I'll look. Until then I have other pursuits to follow.

That pretty much sums up how I feel about it.

You make some good points Metal1.
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Fri May 08, 2009 1:03 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
You make some good points Metal1.

Interesting read that is for sure. But, I think there was some reaching or even personal wishing there. I don't think WoTC would have any interest in third party products, and as hard as they worked to separate the D&D brand from GG, I just can't see them undoing that by bringing in a 3rd party GG product.

And, though Pathfinder doesn't have the same qualms, again I don't think they'd be interested in any third party products that come from such smallish company, that most associate with C&C anyway.

And, that might be the crux of it all, the long association with C&C that will work against them unless they just go with their own system. If anything I can see them go with the OLG and produce stuff on their own.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to just see them fade away.

TheMetal1 · Post by **TheMetal1** » Fri May 08, 2009 1:21 am

Sir Ironside wrote:
But, I think there was some reaching or even personal wishing there.

Oh yes there is all kinds of reaching and personal wishing! The glass is half full on Castle Zagyg at least for me. The reality of WOTC producing a liscensed Castle Greyhawk with GG? Defintely in the wish catagory - now if I could only find that ring...how many wishes have we used so far by the way? Oh wait, darn it even if we do make a wish you know that DM is just going to twist - Monkey's Paw style! :Shudder:

Though in regards to not being interested in 3rd Party stuff, WOTC does have the GSL thing out there for IIRC a simple entry fee of 5 grand, but I don't see them actively promoting anything for those 3rd parties either.

It will be a wait and see thing really. In the interim, the blogger from GreyHawk Grognard's putting out the Castles of the Mad ArchMage - which is his take on the whole Greyhawk/Zagyg mega dungeon, he's doing it all at his leisure and purely for enjoyment. Its a free download and he's up to level six.

If GG decides to do it all in Lejendary Adventures style, well more power to her. I picked up LA when the trolls put out the essentials, not a bad game at all, even ran thru their QuickStart game with a few players. Just not sure how it would fit as a Zagyg/Greyhawk game, though I'm sure it would be fine.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 08, 2009 1:24 am

I love the thread title: Not to bring up a sore subject, but[t]... heh. Silly things bring a tear to my ironside.
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Fri May 08, 2009 1:55 am

TheMetal1 wrote:
Oh yes there is all kinds of reaching and personal wishing!

I'm glad we agree.

TheMetal1 wrote:
Though in regards to not being interested in 3rd Party stuff, WOTC does have the GSL thing out there for IIRC a simple entry fee of 5 grand, but I don't see them actively promoting anything for those 3rd parties either.

You have read the GSL right? $5000 and a deal with the devil. Only I think that a deal with a real devil would be more fair. That is why your not seeing this big stampede of 3rd party publishers knocking down doors to sign on. This isn't the OGL, you will not see a glut of 4e products because of the GSL.

My only hope, like you, is that they see the error of their ways and finish Zagyg with C&C and develop it, in conjunction with C&C, for other systems... including any system they might make up.

I agree with you that a Green Ronin style would be awesome.

Hrolfgar · Post by **Hrolfgar** » Fri May 08, 2009 2:35 am

I check Gygax forums once or twice a month. No news = not good news in my book. I took a mighty oath that I will not post there again until the is some real news, but I was tempted today.

serleran wrote:
love the thread title: Not to bring up a sore subject, but[t]... heh. Silly things bring a tear to my ironside.

Hope you are properly rustproofed.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 08, 2009 2:43 am

Oh yeah, I am unafraid of the tweetering of some obscure Taiwanese armadillo. Bite me, rusty. Gnaw and chew.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri May 08, 2009 3:02 am

Sir Ironside wrote:
You have read the GSL right? $5000 and a deal with the devil.

Actually the $5000 fee went away about 9 months ago. About a month after it was announced actually, cause no one was taking it up. The GSL has been revised in various ways.

But in any event, this is all irrelevant. Gary wasnt interested in having the CZ stuff published with anything but C&C. Stated so on any number of occasions rather publicly.
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papercut · Post by **papercut** » Fri May 08, 2009 3:09 am

serleran wrote:
Oh yeah, I am unafraid of the tweetering of some obscure Taiwanese armadillo. Bite me, rusty. Gnaw and chew.

Taiwanese you say? Where I will smite the monster!
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri May 08, 2009 3:12 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Gary wasnt interested in having the CZ stuff published with anything but C&C. Stated so on any number of occasions rather publicly.

Ayup, and why I don't really have an interest in any C&C stuff that doesn't have that nifty C&C logo gracing it.

tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Fri May 08, 2009 6:30 am

Unfortunately, what Gary said he wanted for CZ and C&C doesn't seem to matter anymore.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri May 08, 2009 11:03 am

I don't want this to sound badly, but it doesn't matter to me if C&C actually does the publishing or not. They have plenty of good things coming up and that's a-okay with me.

My personal preference would be for CZ to be published for use with C&C. If GG themselves do it, I'm fine. If they get Mongoose, Green Ronin, Goodman Games, or Willy who lives three houses down from me to publish it, that's fine. I just want it to be a C&C product. If it's anything else, I'm probably going to pass on it. That's not an insult to Gail or badmouthing Gygax Games - that's just the way I feel (actually I think we're doing pretty well in avoiding that in a good effort to keep this thread alive and kicking ).
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri May 08, 2009 12:00 pm

Who's doing the kicking again?

M
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TheMetal1 · Post by **TheMetal1** » Fri May 08, 2009 4:22 pm

Goodman games would be a good publisher for it, especially if they did it using C&C rules. That would me the Trolls could focus on getting all the rest of their product out verses setting aside some of those things to push out Castle Zagyg.

Though I would really, really like to see Castle Zagyg done in the way they had planned (which you can see here:
http://www.freeyabb.com/trolllordgames/ ... llordgames

- be forwarned though, it is awesome yet painful at the same time)

Just curious - anyone know what was supposed to be at the final level of the Zagyg? I'm assuming it connected to drow relam, but for all I know it might connect to room which is really a lead into the Hall of many panes.

I do wonder how Gail is doing with it being over a year since Gary's death. It is never easy especially after that first year, it might be hard for her to even look at any game stuff. Do any of the Trolls still have contact with her from a non-business perspective as to how she is doing?

Lord Dynel wrote:
Willy who lives three houses down from me to publish it

Just curious what is Willy's game focus and is Willy taking submissions?

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri May 08, 2009 5:07 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
Who's doing the kicking again?

M

I'd say we are...without being too hateful.

TheMetal1 wrote:
Just curious what is Willy's game focus and is Willy taking submissions?

i don't know, Metal. It'd take a fifth of vodka to figure out antything from that crazy bastard.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri May 08, 2009 6:03 pm

This might be a tad unpopular but here goes:

Recently, as in a month or two ago, I was mulling the whole spectrum of Gygax's publishing around. I came to a conclusion that either 1) The Castle was not meant to be published (Considering all the trouble it's had) or 2) It's better off not being published.

On the second point I really think it is better off in our collective imaginations rather than set in print. Why? How hyped is it in our minds? And what does hype do to the event when it passes? Nine times out of ten the event does not live up to the hype. Which is why I think it is better left alone an in our imaginations than in hard form.

Maybe we just need to let the Castle go. Let it be an inspiration to us. But let it go.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri May 08, 2009 6:05 pm

I'm with ya there JG. What is already published gives me more than enough flavor and inspiration to do my thing with it.

Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Fri May 08, 2009 7:22 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Actually the $5000 fee went away about 9 months ago. About a month after it was announced actually, cause no one was taking it up. The GSL has been revised in various ways.

But in any event, this is all irrelevant. Gary wasnt interested in having the CZ stuff published with anything but C&C. Stated so on any number of occasions rather publicly.

Yeah I know, I was at RPGnet when that whole fiasco happened. The two problems, by that time I realized 4e wasn't for me so I lost all interest in finding out about the GSL. But, being at RPGnet the talk was very hard to avoid. So, no I do not know all the specifics but the people I new said they really didn't change what the GSL was suppose to be, but just enough to get tha fanboy's to shut up. Anyway, the proof is in the pudding... companies that where built on the back of the OGL have all decided to stay put.

The proofis in the pudding.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri May 08, 2009 7:28 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
This might be a tad unpopular but here goes:

Recently, as in a month or two ago, I was mulling the whole spectrum of Gygax's publishing around. I came to a conclusion that either 1) The Castle was not meant to be published (Considering all the trouble it's had) or 2) It's better off not being published.

On the second point I really think it is better off in our collective imaginations rather than set in print. Why? How hyped is it in our minds? And what does hype do to the event when it passes? Nine times out of ten the event does not live up to the hype. Which is why I think it is better left alone an in our imaginations than in hard form.

Maybe we just need to let the Castle go. Let it be an inspiration to us. But let it go.

That's something I considered, too. I know it's a silly analogy, but the infamous Bigfoot picture. When it was revealed that it was actually, truly a hoax (and not an alleged hoax) it generated a lot of buzz. Why? Did not most people think it a hoax anyway? Well, it was one thing that powered the legend, the myth, of Bigfoot. With that revealed as a fake, we are one step closer to Bigfoot being a total fabrication.

So yeah, you make a good point, JG. I think if Gary would have brought the Castle to life, it would have worked. A part of me still would like to see it. But maybe it is best for it not to be released - to keep the legend alive, if you will. I don't know if that's going to happen however...at some point I feel it will see print. For good or ill.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri May 08, 2009 7:48 pm

I'm beginning to wonder if my first point is closer to the truth. Going back to the TSR days the castle has had publishing issues. Then the issues that have plagued the production of CZ seems to have followed. Maybe Zagyg just wants it let be.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri May 08, 2009 7:57 pm

I think Gygax Games needs to actually become a working company before we can expect anything. With the certain fellow supposedly in charge I do not see it happening.
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