Not trying to bring up a sore subject, but...

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri May 08, 2009 8:06 pm

True, true.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri May 08, 2009 8:15 pm

I'm surprised so many people feel so strongly about this. Personally, with Castle Zagyg going over to GG, I was bummed as hell. But as the months went on, it just seemed to be the final nail in the coffin. Even if something comes out for whatever game, the excitement is over. How many times can people be dragged along for the ride only to be disappointed over and over. *shrugs* What can you do? Move on.

-O
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri May 08, 2009 10:03 pm

I agree, Omote. Sadly, as fans, we have no choice but to move on.
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TheMetal1 · Post by **TheMetal1** » Sat May 09, 2009 5:21 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
With that revealed as a fake, we are one step closer to Bigfoot being a total fabrication.

Bigfoot is a fabrication?

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat May 09, 2009 2:08 pm

TheMetal1 wrote:
Bigfoot is a fabrication?

Sorry to break the news to you, hoss, but it looks like it.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat May 09, 2009 2:10 pm

Then who stole the CKG manuscript?

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat May 09, 2009 2:11 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Then who stole the CKG manuscript?

Okay, that was the skunk-ape...totally different, hoss.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat May 09, 2009 2:23 pm

The skunk-ape? Really? Huh, that's pretty out of character for him. Usually he's an alright dude.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat May 09, 2009 3:38 pm

Well, everyone has a price, DD. Even the skunk-ape.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat May 09, 2009 5:05 pm

Sad, but true.
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papercut · Post by **papercut** » Sat May 09, 2009 5:48 pm

CKG manu you say? I thought that was vaporware?
Damn those Razorback teams from the early 90's were good.

Drunk posting, please forgive. I really have sweet spot for Are-Kansas in my heart, I really do!

Workin on getting a BAN! A cry for help!
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat May 09, 2009 11:58 pm

And there you have it.
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JRT · Post by **JRT** » Mon May 11, 2009 11:21 pm

Quote:
But in any event, this is all irrelevant. Gary wasnt interested in having the CZ stuff published with anything but C&C. Stated so on any number of occasions rather publicly.

And then there's the plans he only shared with Gail, as well as a few others as well. (As well as him stating in the past he'd do it for Lejendary Adventures). Above all, Gary trusted Gail more than anybody else in the world.

Without getting into things again, like I've said elsewhere, it will probably take months rather than weeks for this to be resolved. I think before anything happens Gail needs to do the legal and financial things she needs to do. The ENWorld thread said it best.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rp ... gygax.html

I'm pretty sure the LA re-release will happen before CZ though.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon May 11, 2009 11:39 pm

I'm pretty sure none of it will be released. And even if somehow it is, I expect that those interested might be able to present the 3-4 copies sold, to the diehards who might be willing to wait, to their great grand kids.
And references to vague and mysterious others are irrelevant. The one irrefutable fact of the situation is this. Products could have been in peoples hands months ago. There was and is no logical reason business or otherwise to have changed plans long agreed too by the principles involved.
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JRT · Post by **JRT** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:00 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
I'm pretty sure none of it will be released. And even if somehow it is, I expect that those interested might be able to present the 3-4 copies sold, to the diehards who might be willing to wait, to their great grand kids.
And references to vague and mysterious others are irrelevant. The one irrefutable fact of the situation is this. Products could have been in peoples hands months ago. There was and is no logical reason business or otherwise to have changed plans long agreed too by the principles involved.

Sorry Peter, but you are the one who brought up the subject by bringing up Gary's statements, using them as passive aggressive shots towards Gail, then when I make statements towards the contrary you try to deflect the issue.

I know you are angry about losing the license, but Gail has said nothing prevents her from ever working with TLG again, and if you were truly Gary's friend you knew that above all you wouldn't insult her. Steve knows this, and has the decency not to attack her. (And Gygax Games is Gail, there's no real separation factor there).

Logically, Gary could have prevented a revocation with a contract or a will. He didn't--so that means he'd approved of whatever Gail did. CZ was always a licensed work from Trigee.

I'm willing to leave it be and not stir up trouble, but you keep doing it with your statements whenever anybody complains. I did know the man longer than you, and I feel he would have wanted me to make sure people don't besmirch Gail. That mattered a lot more to him than his work.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:12 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
I'm pretty sure none of it will be released. And even if somehow it is, I expect that those interested might be able to present the 3-4 copies sold, to the diehards who might be willing to wait, to their great grand kids.
And references to vague and mysterious others are irrelevant. The one irrefutable fact of the situation is this. Products could have been in peoples hands months ago. There was and is no logical reason business or otherwise to have changed plans long agreed too by the principles involved.

I have to say I could think of possible reasons why the decisions were made, but I couldn't think of good reasons to change things. Anyways, I do hope things do come together, and do end up seeing print. I think going LA first is a mistake, but time will tell.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:19 am

JRT wrote:
Sorry Peter, but you are the one who brought up the subject by bringing up Gary's statements, using them as passive aggressive shots towards Gail, then when I make statements towards the contrary you try to deflect the issue.

Gee, its Mr Kettle again. ^_~`

That's because your not backing up your statements with anything but vague allusions. My statements speak to the core issue at hand. As I stated above and see no need to repeat.

The license means nothing to me one way or another. Neither does money. Wasting several years of my time is what's upsetting.

But, at least with Gary, one always knew where one stood, which is why he was my friend, and why I was willing to put time into his projects.

Sides, I'm not the one who brought up the subject. A number of very upset people brought up the subject before I did.

Quote:
Logically, Gary could have prevented a revocation with a contract or a will. He didn't--so that means he'd approved of whatever Gail did. CZ was always a licensed work from Trigee.

The logic above is rather faulty and relies on pages of assumptions.

Quote:
I'm willing to leave it be and not stir up trouble, but you keep doing it with your statements whenever anybody complains.

I'm not stirring up trouble. People who want clear and unambiguous and honest explanations are 'stirring up trouble'. I expect their would be less stirring if there were more real answers forthcoming.
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JRT · Post by **JRT** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:22 am

FYI--by LA release I meant the game.

I don't think the "stat format" and/or the approach of CZ is even decided yet.

JRT · Post by **JRT** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:41 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
The logic above is rather faulty and relies on pages of assumptions.

No, I think it's pretty cut and dried. Gail was the woman behind the scenes since Gary left TSR. I personally can't fathom Gail betraying Gary wishes, since I have a great deal of faith and Gail did a lot for Gary--she's the main reason Gary could continue to write without compromising his principles--and in the end, I'm sure for Gary if push came to shove, would have cared more about Gail's wishes and needs than the fans.

Which in the very end, is all that really matters.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue May 12, 2009 1:03 am

Welp, unfortunately, the fan base seems to be dissipating. Which, might put a bit of a damper on any theoretical long term 'blueprint' for forthcoming products.

Now me, I'm not motivated by money and have turned down a fair bit of lucrative work because of a variety of reasons not having to do with the acquisition of symbolic barter.

However, since this shift in the direction of the aforementioned products seems to be motivated by finance, it ill behoves one to not have any real answers for the fan base who, due to the lack of forthcoming information, seem to be intent putting their money elsewhere.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Tue May 12, 2009 1:48 am

Since there seem to be two threads regarding this subject, I'm simply going to repeat what I said on the other thread.

Traveller wrote:
I have three reasons for my lack of interest in any Gygax Games product:

1. I don't need it.

2. The lack of respect shown to Gary's fanbase, not by Gail, but by the people "advising" her.

3. The greed.

All the licenses were pulled from TLG, who from what I saw was doing a fine job of producing stuff. I'm sure someone out there would say that the licenses were pulled in order to get all the legal ducks in a row, but that ignores the fact that everything Gary wrote for the Trolls was licensed by the Trolls from Trigee/Gygax Games. Therefore there are no legal ducks to put in a row.

The only reason the licenses were pulled was the "advisers" felt they could earn more money taking the material to a larger publisher than the Trolls. While there is nothing wrong with earning money, I believe that making money was NOT the first thing on Gary's mind. These "advisers" seem to be ignoring that little gem and are seeing nothing but dollar signs. Partly because of that change of view, and partly because no one over at Gygax Games is communicating with the fanbase about anything at all, you've got pissed off people who will walk away and never return.

It didn't have to be this way. A few words at the very beginning to explain exactly what was happening would have gone a long way towards maintaining the public trust. A few words every month could have maintained that public trust. Instead, because of this lack of any communication whatsoever, there is no trust. Without trust, you have no customers. Gygax Games should take a few lessons from Circuit City about how NOT to run a business.

And that, gentle readers, is the long and short of it.
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TheMetal1 · Post by **TheMetal1** » Tue May 12, 2009 2:49 am

Its sort of on topic, what do you all think about Lejendary Adventures as a possible system for Castle Zagyg?

I picked up several of the Essentials Boxed sets and even got the Hekaforge Press stuff just to compare. My exprience with LA is simply running thru the quickstart adventure with some friends of various RPG experience. It went pretty well, took about two sessions to go thru with the Pre-gens. The only problem I really had was the layout of the Quick Start rules and understanding some of the magic.

IMHO, sure its doable, but right off the bat the challenge you run into is going to be just the names of things - oafs, ilfs, and other monsters not being present in LA vs. Castle Zagyg/Greyhawk original.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:02 am

TheMetal1 wrote:
IMHO, sure its doable, but right off the bat the challenge you run into is going to be just the names of things - oafs, ilfs, and other monsters not being present in LA vs. Castle Zagyg/Greyhawk original.

Well, the other challenge you run into is the concept of levels. Dungeons are geared to a linear level progression, LA is a fair sight more fluid in its progression.

Not to say it couldn't work, but the entire concept of the dungeon would have to be reconsidered.

Gary had much to say on this topic as well hither and yon. Which is why he was looking for a level based game initially when the Castle project first was bandied about.
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TheMetal1 · Post by **TheMetal1** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:11 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Not to say it couldn't work, but the entire concept of the dungeon would have to be reconsidered.

Gary had much to say on this topic as well hither and yon. Which is why he was looking for a level based game initially when the Castle project first was bandied about.

Interesting, he wanted a level based game for CZ, but his last game was as you said, a bit different. I'm glad that Gary saw the need to put it in a level based format.

In regards to progression, was there an expectation or any idea as what level range the last boxed set was supposed to be set for? IIRC Gary said that he didn't know how many levels there were, but obviously something had to be presented.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:22 am

TheMetal1 wrote:
In regards to progression, was there an expectation or any idea as what level range the last boxed set was supposed to be set for? IIRC Gary said that he didn't know how many levels there were, but obviously something had to be presented.

I dunno. I was just the guy drawing the maps and making it look pretty. What all went in there was between Gary and Jeff. I can only speculate that each successive dungeon level might have been 1-2 levels in difficulty higher.
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papercut · Post by **papercut** » Tue May 12, 2009 6:59 am

Looks like Hommelet just got converted to 4e:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=452474

Cheers
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Dagger · Post by **Dagger** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:06 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
That's something I considered, too. I know it's a silly analogy, but the infamous Bigfoot picture. When it was revealed that it was actually, truly a hoax (and not an alleged hoax) it generated a lot of buzz. Why? Did not most people think it a hoax anyway? Well, it was one thing that powered the legend, the myth, of Bigfoot. With that revealed as a fake, we are one step closer to Bigfoot being a total fabrication.

No, the Patterson/Gimlin film has never been proven to be fake. This essay does a good job of summarizing that misunderstanding:
http://www.bfro.net/gdb/show_FAQ.asp?id=751
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:26 pm

You know what? For some strange reason, I said Bigfoot, but I meant the Loch Ness monster. I didn't even realize that I messed up until your link. I was like, "What the hell...this isn't Nessie...oh wait..." and that's when i realized I meant this not Bigfoot.

Sorry about that!
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Tue May 12, 2009 1:40 pm

Dagger wrote:
No, the Patterson/Gimlin film has never been proven to be fake. This essay does a good job of summarizing that misunderstanding:
http://www.bfro.net/gdb/show_FAQ.asp?id=751

Lord Dynel wrote:
You know what? For some strange reason, I said Bigfoot, but I meant the Loch Ness monster. I didn't even realize that I messed up until your link. I was like, "What the hell...this isn't Nessie...oh wait..." and that's when i realized I meant this not Bigfoot.

Sorry about that!

The funny thing is, that the more proof that you have that, Bigfoot, Nessie, Champ, Ogopgo, Mothman etc. do not exist, the greater amount of attacks on the proof and the person supplying the truth so they can maintain their comfortable reality. I'm seeing a lot of parallels here.

I mean if the ultimate goal was to maintain radio silence the suddenly jump out and go, "Aha! look at all our products you naysayers.!"

Well what was a room filled with 1000's of people, to talk to, now probably have 5.

Dagger · Post by **Dagger** » Tue May 12, 2009 1:41 pm

I'm passionate about this particular subject because my best friend saw one while boating on the St. John's river.
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