Not trying to bring up a sore subject, but...

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:08 pm

Sir Ironside wrote:
The funny thing is, that the more proof that you have that, Bigfoot, Nessie, Champ, Ogopgo, Mothman etc. do not exist, the greater amount of attacks on the proof and the person supplying the truth so they can maintain their comfortable reality. I'm seeing a lot of parallels here.

I mean if the ultimate goal was to maintain radio silence the suddenly jump out and go, "Aha! look at all our products you naysayers.!"

Well what was a room filled with 1000's of people, to talk to, now probably have 5.

I'm not 100% sure I follow. I mean, if the "proof" is irrefutable, then what is there to argue? And that goes one way or the other, actually. I know that shuts a lot of people down on the opposing side of the argument, sometimes, and that does cause the room of 1000's sometimes dwindle down to 5...

Warning: I may be talking out of my ass.
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tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:47 pm

I don't claim to know anything for certain. I think many of us(from the consumer side) just want to see some sort of useful printed material for CZ(that reflects, or comes directly from Gary's notes). That said, it might have to be converted to C&C, but I'd take it. Unless, Gary's notes, etc. have been competely trampled upon, and ignored. That's all.

JRT · Post by **JRT** » Tue May 12, 2009 6:00 pm

TheMetal1 wrote:
Its sort of on topic, what do you all think about Lejendary Adventures as a possible system for Castle Zagyg?

I picked up several of the Essentials Boxed sets and even got the Hekaforge Press stuff just to compare. My exprience with LA is simply running thru the quickstart adventure with some friends of various RPG experience. It went pretty well, took about two sessions to go thru with the Pre-gens. The only problem I really had was the layout of the Quick Start rules and understanding some of the magic.

Well, just as an FYI, Gary did have some plans for that. He did come up with a system of having level progression for Lejendary Adventures.

Here's what he said about that.

Quote:
Heh,

To see if it could be sone so as to offer a dungeon-crawl-type campaign to LA game users. Obviously it can be done by forcing "class" choices on beginning players as per the templates.

Getting rosters of creatures by threat level is another matter...

And here's a quick example

Quote:
Fighter 1st level: H 10 (28) P 15 S 12-15 (d4)

Weapons 25, Physique 15, Rustic 12, Archery 8, Pantology 6.

Optional: Add one Knack of useful sort and one Quirk of moderate sort.

Each level gained through 15 add: H 6 (2) P 3 S 0; and

5 to Weapons; divide 15 points between the other four Abilities, giving at least three to each. Addition to Rustic Ability adds 2 points of H per 10 total score above 10.

Level 16 and above, for each level add 2 Health and 2 points to each Ability other than Weapons.

I think the biggest challenge would be figuring out what to do about the monsters from Beasts of Lejend.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue May 12, 2009 6:10 pm

Actually, it would be relatively easy -- just mathematics. In fact, Gary had even used an idea of mine (the option for weapon specialization) for the fighter for Lejendary Levels. The tough thing is getting players of LA to like the level concept...
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue May 12, 2009 9:26 pm

papercut wrote:
Looks like Hommelet just got converted to 4e:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=452474

Cheers

Hommlet is owned by WOTC. No surprise that it was converted.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue May 12, 2009 9:42 pm

The next comments are meant as nothing more than a statement. There is no intent to fan the flames here.

I'm going to be honest. I'm done waiting. I'm done being patient and I am done with CZ and Gygax Games. When it first was announced I was excited. Then I got Yggsburgh and the excitement built. Then the problems started. First someone who shall remain nameless screwed the project by taking his toys and going home. Then came endless delays that caused frustration after frustration. While this was sorted we saw the CKG get pushed back for CZ, we also saw other things get pushed off the fire for CZ and still nothing. Then the UW came and we were happy only to have it yanked from us. Just a few months of sales and then nothing. It was not enough time for some of us to own one. Those of us with money woes were left out in the cold while more screw-ups were made with the castle. Plans to save up and buy it were dashed as who knows what powers that be saw that CZ:UW was better off the shelf than on.

Thanks to this you can keep CZ. You can keep LA (Which I never liked anyway). In the end it boils down to this Gygax Games=FAIL.
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Tue May 12, 2009 10:10 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
I'm not 100% sure I follow. I mean, if the "proof" is irrefutable, then what is there to argue? And that goes one way or the other, actually. I know that shuts a lot of people down on the opposing side of the argument, sometimes, and that does cause the room of 1000's sometimes dwindle down to 5...

Warning: I may be talking out of my ass.

That could get stinky.

I don't know what you where thinking about proof... I guess it has a wide ranging meaning in this discussion. The proof I speak of is the total lack of communication after pulling the license (From a well respected company even if you didn't buy anything from them.) and maintaining that silence even after the fact. There has never been a business that chose to go this route that didn't either destroy themselves or marginalized themselves that they might as well as fold up their tent and go home. There is a whole slew of proof of that. Even the all mighty George R.R Martin is starting to experience apathy to I hear a lot of people are just stopped caring about the next installment cause sure it may come out in the next couple of years (Even though he said that Feast of Crows was split in half making Dance with Dragons half finished) There is the next book that, what, is gonna take a decade to get out? People are beginning to not care and many people have said they'll get the set if it ever gets finished.

That is the proof I'm talking about, and you can put your head in the sand and pretend that this won't affect GG, I will counter it already has.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Wed May 13, 2009 12:17 am

And I predict that the "advisers" don't care.
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K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Wed May 13, 2009 2:27 am

I find this thread hilarious!!! I mean I definitely feel badly for artists, designers, etc. who wasted their time but this is just more of the same ole' carp. Just sayin'

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed May 13, 2009 2:53 am

K2h2m3 wrote:
but this is just more of the same ole' carp.

Well, that's what you get when you get a bunch of people floundering around in the dark and adrift at sea.
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K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Wed May 13, 2009 3:02 am

Somewhat like my avatar, eh?

TheMetal1 · Post by **TheMetal1** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:59 am

serleran wrote:
Actually, it would be relatively easy -- just mathematics. In fact, Gary had even used an idea of mine (the option for weapon specialization) for the fighter for Lejendary Levels. The tough thing is getting players of LA to like the level concept...

JRT wrote:
Well, just as an FYI, Gary did have some plans for that. He did come up with a system of having level progression for Lejendary Adventures.

Here's what he said about that.

Are you all referring to the progression of Orders or something else?

TheMetal1 · Post by **TheMetal1** » Wed May 13, 2009 5:04 am

K2h2m3 wrote:
...this is just more of the same ole' carp. Just sayin'

We could just change the name of the thread to "Ye Old Fish Shop" Where old salty sea dog fishermen gather together trying to get someone to buy their dead stinky carp telling tales of how great this fish could have been to anyone who walks in and can stand the smell of dead fish long enough to listen.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed May 13, 2009 5:59 am

TheMetal1 wrote:
Are you all referring to the progression of Orders or something else?

Nah, We're talking about something that Gary cooked up on these very boards before he passed away. Just a means of using LA to emulate, in a sense, the classes and level progression of D&D like games.

The resultant intellectual exercise met with a wide range of reaction, from acceptance via the more open minded, and hysterics from those wanting LA to stick with its more fluid non level methodology.
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TheMetal1 · Post by **TheMetal1** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:34 pm

For those of you interested, Gail Gygax actually posted something over at the Gygaxx Games Forum. Here is the link:
http://www.gygax-games.com/Forums/viewt ... 0&start=10

but the full post I've copied below:

Quote:
Greetings Seekers,

I am reading your posts and working towards and end - my goal is to make sure Gary's intellectual property is safeguarded and protected. This takes time, more time than I anticipated - it's not that nothing is going on, I just can not disclose confidential information.

We all want to see Gary's work continue and rest assured, I am working towards that!

I appreciate your patience and understanding. We all miss him and want to keep his memory alive! I am dedicated to just that.

Gail Gygax

Just the facts (or in the case, just the post) I'll let you all do the speculating!

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:45 pm

She didn't say anything she hasn't said before. It's basically a 'We're holding a meeting to set a date for the meeting that will set the date for the meeting that will decide our plan of action' post
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:09 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
She didn't say anything she hasn't said before. It's basically a 'We're holding a meeting to set a date for the meeting that will set the date for the meeting that will decide our plan of action' post

Which I translate as, "I don't care."

yell0w_lantern · Post by **yell0w_lantern** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:18 am

I'm a fan of saying things like, "I'm sorry this is taking so long and it stinks but due to legal stuff there's a lot I can't talk about. But here's what I can do..." even if all she can do is update that there's nothing new or even to offer to talk with people about Gary and that sort of thing. I don't imagine things are all that easy on her end either but a dialogue would be nice and it may not only be helpful for the fans but also for Gail - a lot of people miss Gary and it can be comforting to talk. Well, best wishes to her.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:56 am

It's too little, too late. If Gygax Games in the form of Gail's "advisers" was truly interested in anything other than dollar signs we'd have seen more communication with Gary's fanbase. Instead, all we get is this steaming pile of boilerplate bullshit which says "we want to make sure we make as much money as humanly possible, and to hell with all you loyal fans."

Gail, I know this is difficult for you, and I'm sorry. But, you're listening to the wrong people. Dump them, and get people who give a damn about Gary's work. People like Rob Kuntz, Jim Ward, Luke, Ernie, and the Trolls.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:11 pm

I appreciate the info, Metal1, I really do. Sadly, I feel like Traveller does - it's a little to late for me to care anymore. For a long time I was of the mind that if Gygax Games got the ball rolling again, I would be interested in keeping up with many of their efforts (with the one stipulation they did not go the 4e route).

Now, I think that too much time has passed for me personally, and I'm at the "I don't care" point of things. I think Traveller said it best, IMHO:

Quote:
Gail, I know this is difficult for you, and I'm sorry. But, you're listening to the wrong people. Dump them, and get people who give a damn about Gary's work. People like Rob Kuntz, Jim Ward, Luke, Ernie, and the Trolls.

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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:50 pm

I'll believe it when I see it hit the shelves. Until then, I'm 99.8% not even bothering to look at GG stuff.
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JRT · Post by **JRT** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:06 pm

Traveller wrote:
Gail, I know this is difficult for you, and I'm sorry. But, you're listening to the wrong people. Dump them, and get people who give a damn about Gary's work. People like Rob Kuntz, Jim Ward, Luke, Ernie, and the Trolls.

Without going into defending Gail again, a clarification.

Gary considered Kuntz persona non grata after he decided to leave Castle Zagyg. The split was acrimonious. I won't go into details, but based on that I think Gary would consider it a gross betrayal if Rob Kuntz ever worked in any capacity on the Castle. And I am sure Gail will honor that.

Luke and Ernie were asked about doing the castle when Gary was alive. They didn't want to--the sons have tended to avoid going into game design. So I don't think they ever were interested in continuing his work.

The point I am going to make is, just because the "author" is "old school", or partook in the original campaign, doesn't mean that Gary would have wanted them touching Castle Zagyg with a 50' pole, or even that those authors would want to be involved themselves. I believe a lot of this is fan projection--they don't want what Gail or even Gary himself wanted for CZ--they want what THEY want.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:57 pm

Actually we just wanted CZ which seems to have been better off in the Trolls hands. But, as it is now I feel the fans have been alienated and left in the dark too long. I no longer really care if we get it. I can do my own castle, and The Castle of the Mad Archmage seems to fit what people wanted and that is just one person working.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:14 pm

JRT wrote:
The point I am going to make is, just because the "author" is "old school", or partook in the original campaign, doesn't mean that Gary would have wanted them touching Castle Zagyg with a 50' pole, or even that those authors would want to be involved themselves. I believe a lot of this is fan projection--they don't want what Gail or even Gary himself wanted for CZ--they want what THEY want.

Rob Kuntz gave a damn about the fans and what they wanted. Rob wanted to publish the castle, the entire original stinkin' castle, verbatim. Gary didn't feel the same way. They split, and we are much poorer for it. As to Luke and Ernie, if they didn't want to do the castle, then that is ok. There are OTHER WAYS to be involved with the castle than simply trying to write it.

My point is clear, made clear in my last post. Gygax Games is in an indefensible position here, so accept the fact that Gygax Games screwed the pooch. Oh, and stop being condescending, since I understand more than you think I do.
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JRT · Post by **JRT** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:00 pm

Traveller wrote:
Rob Kuntz gave a damn about the fans and what they wanted. Rob wanted to publish the castle, the entire original stinkin' castle, verbatim.

Rob never had enough knowledge to ever do that by himself. IMO, He should have never committed to TLG and Gary if he was gonna change his mind after the big press releases. (I also think EGG would have never decided to do CZ if he knew what was gonna happen ahead of time.)

Gary always did what he wanted to do. Why do you think he never returned to TSR or WoTC? Why do you think he spent so much time and energy on Lejendary Adventures. (Him doing CZ was, from my perspective, likely a compromise in the actually hopes of making a little more money.)

Quote:
Oh, and stop being condescending, since I understand more than you think I do.

My whole point is I believe if people really want to honor the man, I think worrying about the fate of Castle Zagyg are less important than doing things like having at least a modicum of respect or understanding for what Gail felt she had to do. I feel that matters more in the higher scheme of things, and if I seem condescending about that, well, it's because I think many of the fan base are being a bit selfish. People like Steve, Chris Clark, Jeff T., and others know this. It's the fans, who cared more about the material than the man, who don't seem to get this.

And you would be surprised how little money there is in game design. Personally, I think it would be easier and cheaper for Gail to shut everything down, burn the Castle Zagyg material and get on with her life, instead of possibly consulting with Lawyers who are likely charging her so she can make sure nobody screws her over on Gary's IP like what happened to the Tolkien Estate, the Winnie the Pooh creators, etc. But she's not.

It's quite surreal to me. It's almost to me like knowing EGG was kind of like knowing Jesus back in ancient times, and then seeing after he died all these people forming a religion around him, and sort of misinterpreting things he said or forming tributes he would never have approved of, people projecting their own agendas into Gary's history.

That's what gets me worked up.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:16 am

The fan base and the folks who worked hard on all these projects aren't being selfish. They just want to see the results of the work produced. Not to mention the people who put their time and energy into the process wanting to see their work out as well. Trying to jam up a product in piles of legal red tape when it was perfectly sound the way it was is not logical. Nor is it sensible. Bind it up too much and no company is going to want to touch it when they could go elsewhere with other projects that are less hassle.

Now some folks put a lot of time and money into putting out Gary's work, not to mention the fan base who... were... waiting on such to come out, shafting those folks is what's selfish.

No one is projecting an agenda here. *wry smile* And projecting 'whatifs' with 20/20 hindsight isn't entirely logical or constructive either.

*chuckles* I spent a fair amount of time corresponding with the man myself. A religious saint he wasn't. Anyone who was on his political talk list knows that.

Now folks, I think we'd all be a lot happier, and these boards would be a lot more peaceful, and focused on products that TLG actually has something to do with, if any further discussion on CZ and related IP would continue over at the GG forums.

There are no answers here for the public eager for news.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:35 am

Yeah, it all follows the same path: Any news---> No ----> Disgruntled fans post -----> Gygax games apologist posts and call us selfish cry babies----> Flames get fanned----> Everyone leaves unhappy.

I'd say we let it rot in the obscurity that is coming to it.
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:45 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
Yeah, it all follows the same path: Any news---> No ----> Disgruntled fans post -----> Gygax games apologist posts and call us selfish cry babies----> Flames get fanned----> Everyone leaves unhappy.

Don't forget the trolls... every good flame war has to have a few good trolls.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:11 am

I agree with some of the sentiments shared by many people in this thread on very different sides of the argument. However, with all respect I do agree that we should let it be.

Que sera, sera people.

M
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:32 am

Ou, c'est la vie.
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