Game Geeks #91 Dungeons and Dragons 4E review:

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Tue May 05, 2009 2:07 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp6EbvJ0 ... re=related
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed May 06, 2009 5:14 pm

Interesting review. I've heard the same thing about the skill challenges and it's possible effect on roleplaying. Overall, the review is one of many people saying the same things about 4e. Hard for me to believe it's a conspiracy.

Cue the 4e fans telling me how I, and the reviewer, don't know what the hell we're talking about.

Seriously...to each their own. As long as you're having fun with 4e, or what ever game you're playing, keep enjoying it. But I do agree on a lot of the guy's points.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:24 pm

I actually do not agree with him either. Where I think 4E fails with regards to role playing is in telling players how to role play. Those of us who already know how to will have no problems doing so. 4E teaches you to leave everything up to dice rolls, and makes practically no mention of how you could just role play it out and decide the outcome based on the role play, or at least modify the bonus on the role play.

So he is right in that 4E makes essentially no real attempt to teach role play, which is a critical failure in a "Role Playing Game", but his stance that you pretty much cannot role play in 4E is wrong, you easily can, if you already know how, and that ignoring the dice is an OK thing to do. Things 4E does not point out, or encourage.
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:38 pm

I moderately disagree; I find the 4E mechanics result in games which consist of combats broken up by periods of roleplay. You cannot roleplay combats in 4E, because correct terminology is required to describe actions in terms of what the rules allow and don't allow.

One can add narration, but it would be restating everything twice:

"I take a 5 ft. step, use a healing surge, move 5 squares which does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of my mighty-bound feat, then use 4 points to incure a critical swipe manouver threatening 3 squares behind me."

(pants for breath)

"In narrative speak, I race forward and swipe for his knees, then with grim determination..."
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:40 pm

I chuckle.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:56 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:
I moderately disagree; I find the 4E mechanics result in games which consist of combats broken up by periods of roleplay. You cannot roleplay combats in 4E, because correct terminology is required to describe actions in terms of what the rules allow and don't allow.

One can add narration, but it would be restating everything twice:

"I take a 5 ft. step, use a healing surge, move 5 squares which does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of my mighty-bound feat, then use 4 points to incure a critical swipe manouver threatening 3 squares behind me."

(pants for breath)

"In narrative speak, I race forward and swipe for his knees, then with grim determination..."

I consider narrative description of combat something other than role playing, but I do agree the terminology does have a seriously different flavor than how you would normally describe what you do. I suspect if I got seriously comfortable with 4E rules and terminology I could do it, but then could my players? Only if they grasped things the same way I do, so we would have to learn to speak the same language. So 4E definitely falls down in the area of description as well.
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Wed May 06, 2009 7:26 pm

That's the thing, and I agree with you in the sense that I think 4E COULD be roleplayed by experienced gamers, but it doesn't lend itself to it.

4E: The 8,000lb gorilla that's more WoW than WoW.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed May 06, 2009 7:46 pm

I agree with the fellow's review entirely. And yes, I have the books. I got em super cheap. Has to be one of the funniest reviews I've ever listened too.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed May 06, 2009 7:52 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
I agree with the fellow's review entirely. And yes, I have the books. I got em super cheap. Has to be one of the funniest reviews I've ever listened too.

Exact same case, hoss.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Wed May 06, 2009 10:24 pm

Motion carried (since Dynel seconded Pete's comment). As of now, this review the slimy one presented forth is declared truth, not opinion, and is declared the funniest review seen in some time.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed May 06, 2009 11:00 pm

The fellow does have an engaging turn of phrase.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed May 06, 2009 11:15 pm

Kurt Wiegel -- change that to Gene, and it would be more fun.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed May 06, 2009 11:16 pm

serleran wrote:
Kurt Wiegel -- change that to Gene, and it would be more fun.

Makes you wonder if they are related?
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JediOre · Post by **JediOre** » Thu May 07, 2009 12:54 am

So does this reviewer=slimykuotoan?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu May 07, 2009 1:13 am

JediOre wrote:
So does this reviewer=slimykuotoan?

No, not even close!
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Thu May 07, 2009 9:28 pm

Never Have have I watched such a biased and one dimensional review. I was thinking great! another 4e hate thread.

Gonna admit it has been interesting debating the merits and imagined flaws of the worlds most popular RPG.

Give 4e a fair shake and I know alot of you nay sayers would come around to how great and well designed a game it is.

You can all deny it as much as you want but you know you are only fooling your selves.

Up and coming gamers have given this game high marks over all while some stubborn grognards lambaste... whats new?

Never believe internet critics anyways, some of these people swore up and down that 3e was a good game.

Gonna disagree on the skill challenge complaint, skill challenge really help the game and are a great for good role playing,

Let me give you and example. in my last game the party wanted to talk the inn keeper into cutting the a deal on the room.

You may assume that we just rolled dice to handle it but you would be wrong. we role played! Got the price

Down to half what she had asked for at first so it worked out for the destitute adventurers.

Never once have the rules of 4e or any edition been a bane to role playing unless the players allowed it to be so.

Gonna have to chock up as biased people hating on a game they have no understanding of, they are too into to 3e.

Run the game as DM a few times and you will be sold on how easy it is to write and run adventures.

Around the central florida area we have not one, not two, but three different games being run at the FLGS, come on

And play 4e.

Desert your bias and pre conceptions, embrace the awesomness that is 4e and you will be happier with your life.

You could be a better person. You have to really read what I am saying here and understand it.

Never in all of my days have I seen people so determined to hate what is the greatest D&D ever written.

Gonna go so far as to speculate that the great Gary Gygax would have probably like 4e a lot, He didn't care for 3e.

Make a 4e character, make three all fighters and you will see how easy it is to make unique fun characters.

You may be wondering why i am writing this, my motives are purely for my amusement and maybe also yours.

Cry in your beans if you dont like 4e, its not going to make people want to play those out dated snore fests.

Never in all my days have I had to tolerate such bigotry and closed mindedness when it comes to games.

Gonna laugh that people spend so much of their time to tear down 4e without ever really understanding it.

Say what you want about my opinions but in the end you will see that my words are true.

Goodbye to all of your negative posts and hello to a new RPG era ruled over by 4e. Ruled with a iron fist.

Never more will 3e darken the door of decent FLGS it has been cast down to the ground by the metal that is the D&D 4e!

Gonna have to start wrapping this up I guess, I think i have more than said what I felt like i needed to say,

Tell the truth I really dont care what anyone plays as long as it makes them happy and they accept that!

A person that would disagree with that is suffering from some kind of delusions or must be drunk.

Lie about and make up flaws about 4e all you want. Some of you guys have conspired and lied about 4e.

And in the end you get it or you dont and if you have an open mind and quick wit you will get it sooner than later.

Hurt is all you will receive when you question the greatness of the superior system which is 4e. don't hurt the internet.

You should know better.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Thu May 07, 2009 10:24 pm

Imagined flaws? Stubborn grognards? Crap man, it sounds as if you believe the Trolls shouldn't have bothered with Castles & Crusades and instead stuck with d20, upgrading to Hasbro's new game when the chance came. You do realize this is the Castles & Crusades forum, that game being the true descendant of the Dungeons & Dragons legacy?

I do believe the reviewer mentioned that the system by design doesn't encourage actual role play of situations. Sure, it can be done as others have noted already. The point is that the game system doesn't give any guidelines on HOW TO ROLE PLAY. Think about that for a minute. It's a role playing game and there aren't any guidelines on how to do the one thing the books were bought for? We can role play in Hasbro's new game just as well as any other game system simply because we've been role playing for 10, 20, 30 years or more. The brand new gamer coming off of World of Warcraft isn't likely to know how to role play, and the books sure as hell won't teach him.

The reviewer made his point very well, and it's a point that myself amongst others have made: the only thing that makes the new game Dungeons & Dragons is the name it carries. A MMORPG on paper, to try and attract the World of Warcraft/Everquest II crowd away from their computers. It is unrecognizable from what came before. Even d20, for all its faults, still could be recognized as a Dungeons & Dragons game when you got right down to it (paraphrased from the reviewer's own words). This? Well I don't know what this is, but it sure isn't Dungeons & Dragons.

Now, with that said...

Unless you are communing with Gary directly from the RPG table in the sky, you are in no position to describe to us what he thought of Hasbro's new game. The only person who probably could say with any certainty what his thoughts were was Gail, and I don't think she's talking. Leave that strawman argument at the door.

I've made it very plain that I don't give a damn what anybody else plays, and that they are going to play what they like. However, just because you don't agree with the review doesn't invalidate the points made within it. If you don't like the points made within the review, refute them. Explain to everyone present how the reviewer is wrong, and WHY the reviewer is wrong. Don't come in here full of ruffled indignation and puffed-up anger and expect your tantrum to have any weight.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Thu May 07, 2009 10:33 pm

We're not really wanting to have me sit here and refute each and every falsehood in that review.

No. besides it would be too easy by far to make the guy look like an uniformed newb so why bother?

Strangers on the street know that 4e is the best edition, it saddens me that the esteemed posters here dont get it.

To say that any version of any game is better than 4e is a blatant lie that should shame the speaker. really.

Love the trolls though and what they have done with C&C. it is a great game, almost as good at 4e.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu May 07, 2009 10:41 pm

Hehe. Considering how similar 4e is to C&C, I would say 4e is a great game... almost as good as Castles and Crusades that came before it.

Might as well get the lock out now.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu May 07, 2009 10:44 pm

concobar wrote:
Gonna go so far as to speculate that the great Gary Gygax would have probably like 4e a lot, He didn't care for 3e..

Well, I can tell you for a fact that he didn't, and he was public in saying so. Information on 4e was available before he passed on.
As far as my opinion goes. Read it, played it, understood it, and still don't care for it. Far too many fiddly bits to make it worth any more time devoted to it.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu May 07, 2009 10:52 pm

So what would be a fair shake? I played 4E for 2 months, which is far more of a fair shake than 90% any player of 3E or 4E has given C&C, or any other RPG for that matter. 4E is a good game, but to me it isn't D&D, and I actually prefer GURPS over 4E, and I don't play GURPS very often either.

Plus the reviewer does say the system does not support, or help to learn, how to roleplay. Even in your example of negotiating the price down, you didn't use 4E rules, you used what you knew from years of playing OTHER RPG's. Someone new to RPG's, and using 4E as their learning game, won't know to do what you and your group did. They may get a clue if they thoroughly read the 4E, but they will find very few specific indications as to what "role play" is. They are told to use dice for such things.

So rather than giving emotional responses why don't you sit back, take a few deep breathes, and read through the 4E books and honestly ask yourself, "What in here teaches me to role play the way I know how to do it?" You will find very, very little. You will find plenty of rules on rolling the dice to determine the outcome though. So that is why 4E is NOT conducive to role playing, they tell you use the dice 99% of the time, and only if you thoroughly read the PH AND the DMG will you even notice mentions of true role playing. Unfortunately 4E supports and encourages ROLL playing instead.

However, if your experienced, like you and I are, we will have no problems role playing whatsoever. Totally new group with no experience with RPG's? They will only learn to "roll" play from the 4E books.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Thu May 07, 2009 11:01 pm

You guys are missing the point of my first words, go back and reread them and you will understand what im saying.

Know that I am a C&C fan and really like this community even if you do not share my love of 4e.

The open hate for 4e around here is kinda sad though. I think the best thing would be to just admit that 4e rules.

Rules are what makes 4e the best. the combat rules are awesome, the skill checks are great also.

And while we are on it lets talk about the powers. so very very sweet and far better than 3e ever could do.

So I guess if you guys continue to hate 4e its your loss and not mine. I hope one day you will come around.

Do try to understand what i am saying and what my words mean, so far you are not getting it.

I await your replys and look forward to sharing my insights into 4e with you all.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu May 07, 2009 11:12 pm

Thing is, your not getting what everyone else is saying. Most folks here are well aware of the powers, rules, skills and whatever, and guess what, it doesn't suit the play style of some folks. And that's ok. It doesn't mean people hate the game. It means the rules as they are set up and the entire philosophical outlook of the system does not suit.

People come here to get away from games they don't care for, because TLG is producing a game, set of rules, and philosophy that they do. It makes about as much sense, therefore, to come and evangelise a game style that folks don't care for, here, as it does to go set up a deep fry pork barbecue in the local synagogue.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Thu May 07, 2009 11:17 pm

I hope you guys get the meaning of my first words.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu May 07, 2009 11:41 pm

I am afraid I do not understand ba ba or gi gi, nor do I think they are truly words.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Fri May 08, 2009 12:19 am

A joke is a joke and I admit I appreciate the wit serleran, I hope you can appreciate mine. it is there.

Full on to respond, I know this is a board devoted to C&C which I have supported for years.

Commitments a thing I know about. I wasnt trying to attack C&C or the troll lords at all.

What I am trying to do is get a message to all the readers of this board. I know you guys can figure it out.

Im also defending 4e, seems that for a board devoted to C&C there are a lot of jabs at 4e taken

Thinking about it it seems like bitter exes taking shots at the lover that dumped them. just a thought

Of course that's just my opinion, doesnt make it right at all just what I am seeing.

You know, I would bet money if any of you guys played in my game your opinions would change.

Wouldn't that be sweet? A troll lords get together with beers and role playing. FYI I like sparks.

Get this though, I am saying more than one thing in every post. it is subtle, Dynel may get it.

This whole debate is silly really and one day soon I think people will laugh and laugh about it.

From what I am hearing though a lot of people are coming around to 4e and that's a good thing.

Any 4e players in kissimmee should look up the game nights at coliseum of comics. lots of fun!

Other than this I have been watching more of the reviews from the OP. I like the guys style TBH.

Guy has a way of laying it out there that is easy to follow and gets his point across.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Fri May 08, 2009 1:29 am

concobar wrote:
We're not really wanting to have me sit here and refute each and every falsehood in that review. No. besides it would be too easy by far to make the guy look like an uniformed newb so why bother? Strangers on the street know that 4e is the best edition, it saddens me that the esteemed posters here dont get it. To say that any version of any game is better than 4e is a blatant lie that should shame the speaker. really. Love the trolls though and what they have done with C&C. it is a great game, almost as good at 4e.

Strangers on the street don't know of other games except for the 8,000lb. gorilla. Therefore that isn't a valid metric for determining what game is the "best". Oh, and since you've taken it on yourself to refer to anyone who says any version of any game is better than Hasbro's new game as a liar, I need to add this: AD&D (1st Edition) is better than Hasbro's disaster. Do I lie?

Referring back to the your opening sentence above, is it that you're unwilling to take the time to answer the charges the review makes, or that you simply can't?
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri May 08, 2009 1:39 am

Strangers on the street buy what's on the shelves and what their friends are buying. This does not indicate superior merit, just what's popular.

3e sold more on its initial print run. Therefore, 3e must be the better game than 4e since more people bought it. Going by the 'strangers on the street' logic anyhow.
Which still makes AD&D 1e the most superior game, going by the same logic, since the sales of 2e, 3e and 4e have yet to equal the sales of 1e.

+5 Axe of Logic.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Fri May 08, 2009 1:50 am

concobar wrote:
Never Have have I watched such a biased and one dimensional review. I was thinking great! another 4e hate thread.
Gonna admit it has been interesting debating the merits and imagined flaws of the worlds most popular RPG.
Give 4e a fair shake and I know alot of you nay sayers would come around to how great and well designed a game it is.
You can all deny it as much as you want but you know you are only fooling your selves.
Up and coming gamers have given this game high marks over all while some stubborn grognards lambaste... whats new?

reread all of my posts guys. I really thought someone would catch on.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri May 08, 2009 1:51 am

Treebore wrote:
read through the 4E books and honestly ask yourself, "What in here teaches me to role play the way I know how to do it?" You will find very, very little. You will find plenty of rules on rolling the dice to determine the outcome though.

First, I think AD&D is a superior game to 4e in many, many ways. But, to be fair, how much role-playing do you read in the AD&D PHB compared to the 4e PHB...about the same. There were people having random, not story combat matches with critters out of the MM and thought they were playing D&D even way back in the day.

We've learned to roleplay the way we did due to years and years of doing it and the cultural focus at the time (less flashy eye candy back then), not because the PHB or other rules.

I still think the D&D name has been pirated for the use of other games ever since 2000 but thats neither here nor there.