Game Geeks #91 Dungeons and Dragons 4E review:

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri May 08, 2009 2:06 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
Overall, the review is one of many people saying the same things about 4e. Hard for me to believe it's a conspiracy.

A few years back I heard about this curious little game called Castles & Crusades. It sparked an interest in me so I asked around on a few forums about it. The responses were largely the same:

"It's too dumbed down."

"It's nothing but unimaginative cookie cut out characters that are all the same."

"TLG editors suck ass and so does C&C."

etc, etc, etc.

Hell, C&C threads stretched into massive page counts with all the crapping.

Treebore and a handful of others were the minority voices I heard through the shouting telling me about the positive parts of the game.

Sure glad I checked it out despite the fact that many people were saying the same negative things about C&C. Sometimes people just like to bitch and moan about a game.

Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Fri May 08, 2009 2:17 am

concobar wrote:
We're not really wanting to have me sit here and refute each and every falsehood in that review.

No. besides it would be too easy by far to make the guy look like an uniformed newb so why bother?

Strangers on the street know that 4e is the best edition, it saddens me that the esteemed posters here dont get it.

To say that any version of any game is better than 4e is a blatant lie that should shame the speaker. really.

Love the trolls though and what they have done with C&C. it is a great game, almost as good at 4e.

It's like a mirror, he says everything he accuses others of doing.

4e begins and ends with the dependence of miniatures for combat. 4e is closer to a baord game than any other rpg. There is no arguing its success and I'm not someone that detests 4e, nope I've defended it buy saying it brings a lot of new blood into the rpg world. And, if even 5% of that new blood discovers other great rpg's then I have a hard time seeing why people hate 4e... you are out numbered by a large majority.

But it also ends by anyone telling me, I'm doing it wrong if I don't like 4e. I'll never play 4e because it doesn't even come close to what I want in a rpg. But I don't hate it.

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Fri May 08, 2009 2:22 am

concobar wrote:
Never believe internet critics anyways, some of these people swore up and down that 3e was a good game.
Gonna disagree on the skill challenge complaint, skill challenge really help the game and are a great for good role playing,
Let me give you and example. in my last game the party wanted to talk the inn keeper into cutting the a deal on the room.
You may assume that we just rolled dice to handle it but you would be wrong. we role played! Got the price
Down to half what she had asked for at first so it worked out for the destitute adventurers.

Seriously.. this has been more epic than I could have imagined. even after I post the bold text I have people biting.

reread all of my earlier posts on this thread guys. read the first word on the left from top to bottom.

get it?
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Fri May 08, 2009 2:24 am

concobar wrote:
But it also ends by anyone telling me, I'm doing it wrong if I don't like 4e. I'll never play 4e because it doesn't even come close to what I want in a rpg. But I don't hate it.

concobar wrote:
reread all of my posts guys. I really thought someone would catch on.

By your very first post, when I first read it I thought... he isn't defending 4e he is doing a subtle mocking of 4e lovers.

But I could be wrong.

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Fri May 08, 2009 2:24 am

in case you still missed it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 08, 2009 2:28 am

I had already seen the near acrostic... it was why I went with humor in my reply.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Fri May 08, 2009 2:36 am

I had thought that was a possibility.
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papercut · Post by **papercut** » Fri May 08, 2009 2:36 am

Having bought some of the 4e stuff for educational purposes (one of my students is reading the core books this summer, and he likes the game very much), and having run a short 4e game every week for 7 months or so, I have to say the game is pretty good. The character generator is amazing and one of the best selling points of the game IMHO, it takes alot of crunchy burden out of the game. Levels 1-3 are free, and if you uninstall the app every month it gets updates for free as well! Cutepdf writer makes the sheets portable which is great. Overall, The system is very strong and robust in addition to not being difficult to run. So fun for all.

That being said, it does not lend itself to my preferred game style which is much more fast and loose with fun role playing and no mat. Along with the crunch, the strength of 4e is in the tactical/board game aspect. I have found a big difference in my encounters as a DM when I use a module and when I run fast and loose. I have to do too much prep and strategic thinking ahead of time to make an interesting encounter other than "Here are these monsters, fight!" That is the key difference to me, the two types of gameplay. Both C&C and 4e both better designed than 3e and more fun to play/run IMHO.

I don't think there is 4e hate on the board, just disinterest.
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papercut · Post by **papercut** » Fri May 08, 2009 2:38 am

Lol, i got Rickrolled while I was typing! I have always loved that song, takes me back to 7th grade.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Fri May 08, 2009 12:37 pm

concobar wrote:
reread all of my posts guys. I really thought someone would catch on.

Dude, that's just sooo wrong.
Methinks I doth protest too much.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri May 08, 2009 4:06 pm

As for the review itself?

He lost me less than 2 1/2 minutes in with the simple phrase (referring to 3e):
At the end of the day I could still recognize the damn thing as D&D.

If you can look at the travesty of 3e and proclaim it D&D, then I revoke your right to be taken seriously by me when bitching about how something else is not D&D.
"My abomination is D&D, your abomination isn't!"

The irony makes me chuckle every time I see it.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri May 08, 2009 8:01 pm

papercut wrote:
Having bought some of the 4e stuff for educational purposes (one of my students is reading the core books this summer, and he likes the game very much), and having run a short 4e game every week for 7 months or so, I have to say the game is pretty good. The character generator is amazing and one of the best selling points of the game IMHO, it takes alot of crunchy burden out of the game. Levels 1-3 are free, and if you uninstall the app every month it gets updates for free as well! Cutepdf writer makes the sheets portable which is great. Overall, The system is very strong and robust in addition to not being difficult to run. So fun for all.

That being said, it does not lend itself to my preferred game style which is much more fast and loose with fun role playing and no mat. Along with the crunch, the strength of 4e is in the tactical/board game aspect. I have found a big difference in my encounters as a DM when I use a module and when I run fast and loose. I have to do too much prep and strategic thinking ahead of time to make an interesting encounter other than "Here are these monsters, fight!" That is the key difference to me, the two types of gameplay. Both C&C and 4e both better designed than 3e and more fun to play/run IMHO.

I don't think there is 4e hate on the board, just disinterest.

Yep, disinterest is a very good word.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Fri May 08, 2009 10:10 pm

Treebore wrote:
Yep, disinterest is a very good word.

Gotta disagree with you on this tree, if people were disinterested they would devote less time to bashing 4e.

Make what you want of that statement but fact is board members that are anti4e search the web for like reviews to post.

You know that if you have to cast about for agreeing opinions you are not strong in your convictions.

Understand that I dont really care, to each there own and the review was worth seeing even if it was wrong.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 08, 2009 10:17 pm

Again we delve into the art

gaining nothing from

anything you or

I have contributed, eventually resolving

nothing

?
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Fri May 08, 2009 10:22 pm

Looks like

Only I think I have made a point or two.

Likely only one point now that I think about it.

!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri May 08, 2009 10:30 pm

concobar wrote:
Gotta disagree with you on this tree, if people were disinterested they would devote less time to bashing 4e.

Make what you want of that statement but fact is board members that are anti4e search the web for like reviews to post.

You know that if you have to cast about for agreeing opinions you are not strong in your convictions.

Understand that I dont really care, to each there own and the review was worth seeing even if it was wrong.

Actually, Slimy "found" that because he and I were talking with another gamer on line playing our SKYPE Maptools game, and THAT gamer told Slimy and I about this guys review, and how it influenced his not getting into 4E too. For the record, Slimy, Kayolan, and I all played in the same 4E game for over 2 months. We all have very similar thoughts, 4E is a good game, for what it is, but it isn't something we want.

So there was no "hunting" for anything, it was something that came up in our discussing gaming, and Slimy thought it was of enough interest to post the link.

Plus Kayolan, Slimy, and I are plenty strong enough in our convictions to not have any underlying need to cast about for someone to make us feel justified in our opinion. We know what we like, we don't need others to support us to feel "justified", otherwise we would all like and dislike the same things. We don't. In fact many of our discussions have involved why we like games the other one or two may not. That is because we like gaming, so listen just in case they bring up something that may convince us our previous opinion about an RPG may have been wrong all of these years, or to see about giving a game we have ignored a try, which is why we have played Alternity, Warhammer, Mutants and Masterminds, and a bunch of other games over the last 2 years. Thanks to the convenience of on line gaming I have played a larger variety of RPG's over the last 2 years than I had in the previous 20.

In fact our Thursday game is dedicated to trying out things we haven't tried before, or like enough to play it again. Hence our current L5R game, and we have played Aces and Eights, Warhammer, Traveller, Paranoia, Go Fer Your Gun, Twilight 2000, Gear Kreig, Shadowrun 4E, and other games. Twilight 2013, run by me, is on the schedule next.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Fri May 08, 2009 11:13 pm

some people cant see the forest for the trees.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri May 08, 2009 11:17 pm

concobar wrote:
some people cant see the forest for the trees.

THAT we can agree on.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Fri May 08, 2009 11:22 pm

Treebore,

do me a favor, go back to my first post on this thread on page 2.

read only the first word of each line from top to bottom.

continue with my other posts in this thread.

look up rick rolled.

thanks.
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ssfsx17 · Post by **ssfsx17** » Sat May 09, 2009 1:05 am

concobar:

You should be aware that the majority of the users on this forum are, at a minimum, old enough to chaperone minors into bars. I'm only one year short of that privilege in California. Many here are even parents. Treebore in particular has a teen son who is probably older than you as well - at the very least, he sure acts a lot older than you act.

One of these days, I hope you will learn that there is so much more to gaming than kewl powerz, and that there is so much more to fantasy than just pointy-eared flamboyantly-dressed folks prancing about like mad. We can recommend some good books to you in order to get a good feel of what our background is, if you have a sufficient allowance from your parents to buy books, and if you have the patience to read.

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sat May 09, 2009 1:15 am

I like 4e even though I started role playing about 25 years ago with purple box OD&D. I do hope to learn what role playing is all about one day though.
By all means suggest a few good books. remember that being older that 20 is no excuse for lacking a sense of humor.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat May 09, 2009 1:18 am

Clone blue on the left, clone red on the left. Where did my clone yellow go? Ah, north. He was eaten by a grue.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sat May 09, 2009 1:25 am

+5 for Zork and or vance reference.
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GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Sat May 09, 2009 1:34 am

Quote:
suggest a few good books

The Art of The Lap Dance by Doctor Serleran

4E Killed my Dog By Jeffery Treebeard

I will Unshy You by Ssfsx17 Nosmile

Please look at me,Again by Concobar E. Tokensmoke

Looking for Love in all My Wrong Places By George (Skinny) Gameogre
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Sat May 09, 2009 1:35 am

I grow tired. *yawn*

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sat May 09, 2009 2:08 am

Go to bed? that is not an invitation so don't get any funny thoughts.

Funny book titles Ogre.

I thought people would catch on quicker than they did and I could maybe derail yet another thread devoted to 4e hate. Alas my joke has got some feather ruffled and feelings hurt. Cant say that was my intention at all so to all of you that didn't get it or got pissed when you did, i apologize.

I guess if I had to be serious and refute the claims of the review and some of the posters in this thread it would be to say that 4e is all about the powers in exactly the same way that every other RPG is all about the powers. Ya see, when you are sitting down to what ever game you play and say playing a fighter you need to realize that having a great HD the best ATT progression in the game and the ability to wear heavy armor are powers. powers that most other classes do not share. Can any one here who plays a wizard or thief claim that the characters are not all about the powers? (spells vrs thief abilities) You could say that but you would be wrong.

On these very boards we discuss and debate the way classes are built in C&C be it the barbarian and more recently the assassin. when we argue that the assassin should have the power to pick locks are we not making it all about the powers? Does it really offend some of you guys so much that a 4e fighter can do more than take basic attacks? Heaven forbid the fighter be useful past lvl 5 right?

As I worked into one of my earlier posts, If 4e is so unimportant and you guys are so uninterested in it why do you devote so much time to attacking it at every opportunity? Why post a youtube vid bashing 4e on the C&C boards and then stand around commenting how the reviewer agrees with you so you must be right? And better the posts that 3e was somehow more D&D than 4e. it is to laugh.

My favorite is the bemoaning that 4e doesn't have anything in it to help you role play. This from people who have been throwing dice for decades. Its a joke right? Now sooner or later someone will point out that that statement was in reference to new players which I can see but then, my OD&D has almost nothing in it about how to role play. No edition does and I would think that is because the devs had faith that anyone that would buy the game would be smart enough to figure it out.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat May 09, 2009 2:13 am

I refrain from further commenting on this thread, unless DD has something to say.

If he does, please refer to this post for my reply.

DD, you're wrong.

That is all.

Seriously, it's all fun and games, rolling dice, and having a good time. I don't like 4e. A lot of people don't for various reasons. A lot of people don't like GURPS, or 3e, or Palladium either. Usually the complaints about said game are universal - 3e was too clunky and unbalanced, GURPS doesn't really handle realism at certain power levels, or Palladium is just too...Palladium. I don't consider these to be consparicies, either. These are problems that a lot of people have, and they're consistant. I also feel that there are problems with 4e, too. And they're consistant...issuse a lot of people are having with the system. And it's not a conspiracy, either. If anyone hadn't understood what I meant by me saying talking about a conspiracy, that's what I meant.
And yeah, concobar, I saw what you did. I applaud you. I was wondering if anyone else was going to catch on...i didn't want to ruin your fun.
I do want to comment on your last post, if that's okay. About defending 4e...the same can be said the opposite way - if you're convinced 4e is that good, then don't let us bitchers and moaners bother you. Don't worry about defending 4e. If you like it, then that's all that matters. People are going to hate of the 8,000 lb. gorilla in the corner, whether you like it or not. It's been hated on for many a year. If you like it, that's all that matters in the end.

I'm not the Ambassador of Gaming Goodwill, but I do hope everyone is playing and having a good time with whatever they're playing...whatever the system.
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GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Sat May 09, 2009 2:31 am

I'm about ready to join the OD&D Club that hates all other forms of role playing so much we will go to your house and burn your books and replace them with OD&D Stuff.

Oh wait! I meant Classic D&D those OD&D guys are going to HELL.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sat May 09, 2009 2:32 am

I like to think it is all in good fun.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat May 09, 2009 4:12 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
I refrain from further commenting on this thread, unless DD has something to say.

If he does, please refer to this post for my reply.

DD, you're wrong.

That is all.

Sorry LD, I just can't help but poke at 3e with a 10 foot pole.