Barbarians as a Race/Culture, not Class....

Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:46 pm

I like the idea of the Barbarian being more of a 'race'/culture than a class. What is called the Barbarian class in the C&C PHB I consider to be the Berserker class. For myself, I'm using semi-canon Blackmoor as my base setting. Steppes Barbarians, Hyperborean Barbarians, Desert Barbarians and finally Amazons make up the main 'barbarian' cultures.

Figured I would divvy up some of the Barbarrian abilities from 1e Unearthed Arcana, but give all of them intolerance of Mages (evenmoreso because of The Wizard's Cabal and their Inquisitors). with the exceptions of the Runecaster and Witch (based loosely on the Blackmoor Wokan). Of course, unlike normal humans, they only get 2 Primes and cannot Multi-Class but only Dual Class. That balances them somwhat as even most Demi-Humans get to Multi-Class and even most Semi-Humans (with the exception of Dragonians). Also, everyone views them with Antipathy and they do the same in return (only the Wild Elves of the Westryn Tribes are more disliked).

A little back of the envelope scribbling (this is still a work in progress, so I'm fiddling with it)...
Steppes Barbarrians

Constitution Bonus

Leadership

Born in the Saddle (+1 bonus w/any Lance & short composite bow while mounted)

Bonded Mount (empathic link to mount)

Wilderness Survival: Steppes

Classes: Noble, Knight, Fighter, Shaman*, Healer, Thief, Bandit, Merchant
Hyperborean Barbarrians

Constitution Bonus

Back protection

Detect Illusion

Fury of the North (+1 to hit w/any axe & spear)

Wilderness Survival: Hyperborean

Classes: Noble, Fighter, Ranger, Brawler**, Berserker, Runecaster, Witch, Shaman, Beastmaster, Bard, Thief, Assassin, Bandit, Merchant, Mariner
Desert Barbarrians

Dex bonus w/Light Armour

Back Protection

Constitution Bonus

Hide in Natural Surroundings

Adaptable Wilderness Survival (applies to wherever they are at the moment)

Classes: Noble, Paladin of Tyranny (LE Paladin), Fighter, Ranger, Brawler, Berserker, Witch, Shaman, Thief, Assassin, Bandit
Amazons

Dex bonus w/Light Armour

Fast Movement

Springing & Leaping

Climbing Cliffs & Trees

Adaptable Wilderness Survival (applies wherever they are at the moment)

Classes: Noble, Fighter, Ranger, Mystic, Witch, Druid, Shaman, Bard, Thief, Assassin, Bandit

* - Adapted from the Barbarian Cleric class in Dragon Magazine #109

** - Replacement for the Monk, based loosely on the Cestus Gladiators of ancient Rome
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed May 06, 2009 9:28 pm

The cool thing about this is it will also fit very well into the Wilderlands setting too.

As for empathic mounts, more needs to be done about such creatures. The idea of them going up in HD in 3E is a good one, however I want the nature of the empathic bonding between them to somehow power the increase in abilities of those bonded mounts would be good. I have been looking at the Druid class for laying this ground work, with their animal companion abilities all the way up to their "Awaken" spell.

So I am looking at writing up a companion system that also allows such companions to advance with their empathic PC partners, as well as NPC partners, something beyond just saying "They gain HD."
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Wed May 06, 2009 9:43 pm

Treebore wrote:
The cool thing about this is it will also fit very well into the Wilderlands setting too.

I've been meaning to look into the various Wilderlands settings. Any helpful advice? I'm really trying to track down a copy of the original Great Kingdom Map from the original Domesday Book since I understand its very different from the published version by TSR.

I got the idea for the Amazons from Diablo II. The powers from 1e Unearthed Arcana seem to be tailor made for them.

Quote:
As for empathic mounts, more needs to be done about such creatures. The idea of them going up in HD in 3E is a good one, however I want the nature of the empathic bonding between them to somehow power the increase in abilities of those bonded mounts would be good. I have been looking at the Druid class for laying this ground work, with their animal companion abilities all the way up to their "Awaken" spell.

Thats not a bad idea. I think a good addenda to Bonded Mount is that a Steppes Barbarian (since horses are literally their lives) get an inherent bonus to determine which prospective horse is the best overall quality (meaning they can pick out the one with the most HP etc). They can literally look a gift horse in the mouth.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed May 06, 2009 9:53 pm

Keolander wrote:
I've been meaning to look into the various Wilderlands settings. Any helpful advice? I'm really trying to track down a copy of the original Great Kingdom Map from the original Domesday Book since I understand its very different from the published version by TSR.

I got the idea for the Amazons from Diablo II. The powers from 1e Unearthed Arcana seem to be tailor made for them.

Thats not a bad idea. I think a good addenda to Bonded Mount is that a Steppes Barbarian (since horses are literally their lives) get an inherent bonus to determine which prospective horse is the best overall quality (meaning they can pick out the one with the most HP etc). They can literally look a gift horse in the mouth.

Well, since your new to the "Wilderlands", apparently, I would suggest checking out James Mishler's Adventure Games Publishing and what he is doing with his officially licensed Wilderlands material. I was lucky enough to buy JG material, for the most part, when it was still readily available. I am only short on their stuff prior to 1979. I would be more so if my being in the Navy didn't put me in the right place at the right time to buy out some collections over the years.

Now, its to visit used book stores, pay premium prices to places like Noble Knight, or patiently haunt eBay. Which is how I got all the JG Traveller stuff I wanted.
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Wulfgarn · Post by **Wulfgarn** » Wed May 06, 2009 9:55 pm

I also like the concept of the Barbarian being a Race/Culture.

I guess the Classess that would fit in that culture would be Berserker or Totem Warrior (form Arcana Evolved)

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed May 06, 2009 9:59 pm

As for the horses, I have already outlined a special breeding program that an order of druids does in my campaign world. Through selective breeding through many generations, as well as magical enhancements related to "Awaken", I have a wide range of horses at various HD, not to mention good "Holy" Warhorses for Paladins, etc... So Knights, Paladins, and PC's in general can invest in mounts that can actually survive 10 to 15 HD Fireballs once or twice, and not turn to ash.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Wed May 06, 2009 10:17 pm

Wulfgarn wrote:
I also like the concept of the Barbarian being a Race/Culture.

Agreed. Like the Knight, I believe the Barbarian can be brought to life using role play, rather than making it a class. This is the reason those two classes are specifically prohibited in my house rules.
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Wed May 06, 2009 10:22 pm

Traveller wrote:
This is the reason those two classes are specifically prohibited in my house rules.

See, I keep the Knight, but not as published. I run a more Dark Ages/Migration Era setting for Blackmoor and a mounted warrior (knight for lack of a better term) is essential. However, I make the class like a Kataphract/Clibanar than the later Medieval Knight.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed May 06, 2009 10:38 pm

I use the Knight from the C&C PH because it is a devastating death machine from horse back, which is my main vision of Knights. The other powers they get are really nothing, but the lance damage, the bonus they get, the penalties they are allowed to ignore, all add up to one kick butt machine of death on horse back.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Thu May 07, 2009 2:48 am

They are a devastating death machine from horseback, if they happen to be mounted on a horse. They can't take their horse with them into a dungeon because the horse spooks too easily. That aside, Knights I just don't see a purpose for, since they can be emulated using a Fighter who has knowledge of horse riding and adheres to a code of chivalric conduct.

I don't see Barbarians as berserker types, even though they have primal fury and those abilities in the book. Barbarians may have inferior technology to the areas of "civilization", but they are by no means unintelligent even though they have little grasp of tactics. When someone says Barbarian the first thing I think of is Conan, a Fighter with an aversion to magic that is unfamiliar with civilized ways yet can beat the snot out of most anything that moves, especially once the threat is pointed out to him.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu May 07, 2009 10:53 am

Some interesting ideas. I like the idea of bonded mounts. I'd like to see more brianstorming in that aspect, but I'm not too sure I like the concpet of inflated HD. Now, don't get me wrong, the ideas presented so far have been awesome - especially Tree's idea of selective breeding (it at least gives a good reason for "studier" mounts). I've been mulling over how to do this without increasing the animals stats (mainly because I'm considering animal companions in my game, and I don't want them to be increased, either).

I was thinking of going a more empathic route for mounts. That is, when mounted, a horse shares the saves and AC of the knight ?(or possibly the paladin, too). A knight's class ability bonuses apply to the munt as well (and again, possibly to the paladin, too, if I decide to extend the rules).

Definitely some good ideas in this thread.
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Thu May 07, 2009 2:05 pm

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ckutalik · Post by **ckutalik** » Thu May 07, 2009 4:25 pm

I really dig this concept too. The Barbarian has been an inexplicably popular choice in our campaign (no less than 4 out of 14 players total). As a class they have felt a little vanilla, this seems like a much more colorful way of doing it that I think I'd like to introduce into my own.

One question: what do you mean exactly by a "dex bonus for light armor"? Above and beyond the current ones? And how much if so?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu May 07, 2009 4:31 pm

What of the civilized barbarians?
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ckutalik · Post by **ckutalik** » Thu May 07, 2009 5:32 pm

I forgot to add that I had expanded the edge of my sandbox campaign world to include rece tly an island of amazons. So I'm definitely going to steal the Amazon as race idea.

Another thought, what about an attribute penalty as a balance? Charisma seems like a possible hit since barbs tend to be a surly bunch in civilized society.

Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Thu May 07, 2009 6:52 pm

serleran wrote:
What of the civilized barbarians?

Well, one could argue the Hyperboreans (based on the Vendel/Vikings) and the Steppes (based on the Scytho-Sarmatians and later Hunnic peoples) are civilized. After all, they both can be Merchants and the Hyperboreans can be Mariners. I'm using Barbarian in the sense of being different from the Imperials (High Thonians) and subject peoples (Thonians). Basically, Im using the Roman model.

At least in my campaign, there are foederate troops of Barbarians serving the King of Blackmoor much as there were Anglo-Saxon, Frisian and Jute foederates serving all through Britannia.
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Thu May 07, 2009 7:33 pm

ckutalik wrote:
Another thought, what about an attribute penalty as a balance? Charisma seems like a possible hit since barbs tend to be a surly bunch in civilized society.

No, simply because several classes depend entirely on Charisma (Noble, Bard, Merchant). Its why I said they could not multi-class, only dual-class, as well as only having 2 Primes. I also don't have the whole illiteracy angle either, since several of them (Hyperboreans & Amazons) use Runic scripts.

Anyway, after a suggestion at Knights & Knaves, I figured I would tweak the Amazon. They are based mostly on the Diablo II Amazon.
Amazons

Dex bonus w/Light Armour

Fast Movement

Springing & Leaping

Grace of Hippolyta (+1 to hit w/Long Bow & Javelin)

Adaptable Wilderness Survival (applies wherever they are at the moment)

Classes: Noble, Fighter, Ranger, Mystic, Witch, Druid, Shaman, Bard, Thief, Thief-Acrobat, Assassin, Bandit, Merchant
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu May 07, 2009 11:20 pm

Keolander wrote:
Well, one could argue the Hyperboreans (based on the Vendel/Vikings) and the Steppes (based on the Scytho-Sarmatians and later Hunnic peoples) are civilized. After all, they both can be Merchants and the Hyperboreans can be Mariners. I'm using Barbarian in the sense of being different from the Imperials (High Thonians) and subject peoples (Thonians). Basically, Im using the Roman model.

At least in my campaign, there are foederate troops of Barbarians serving the King of Blackmoor much as there were Anglo-Saxon, Frisian and Jute foederates serving all through Britannia.

That seems to make pretty good sense to me.
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koralas · Post by **koralas** » Sat May 09, 2009 12:29 pm

Keolander wrote:
I like the idea of the Barbarian being more of a 'race'/culture than a class. What is called the Barbarian class in the C&C PHB I consider to be the Berserker class. For myself, I'm using semi-canon Blackmoor as my base setting. Steppes Barbarians, Hyperborean Barbarians, Desert Barbarians and finally Amazons make up the main 'barbarian' cultures.

Sounds familiar to a thread I started a while back, but didn't get enough interest... Pulling out from some old 2e notes on barbaric sub-races http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Similar concept, still needs some work and balancing, have more notes if you want them. Can send here or offline as you would like.

Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Sat May 09, 2009 3:07 pm

koralas wrote:
Similar concept, still needs some work and balancing, have more notes if you want them. Can send here or offline as you would like.

Merge the thread if you want. Share one and all. Post it if ya got it. Never hurts to get more input.
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Aldarron · Post by **Aldarron** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:10 am

I'm with you on this. Changing barbarians from a class to individual races makes absolute sense. I always saw the class as a codemane for Conan. Changing Barbarians from a one shot, 2 dimensional stereotype to a racial background with multiple classes possible really enriches the game. Bravo.
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Grey · Post by **Grey** » Tue May 12, 2009 6:43 am

Not sure if this is going a bit off topic, but the earlier 'empathic' mount discussion has got me thinking, especially as a rider myself, in terms of what happens when out and about on horseback.

I tend to allow 'bonded' mounts to give bonuses to various SIEGE rolls such as adding the horses HD as a bonus to CHA rolls for intimidation attempts (you wouldn;t believe how threatening you can be if your horse co-operates!).

I also give a bonus to WIS rolls for surprise if the rider has a horse they are bonded with (horses often pick up on things the rider doesn't, and if you really know your mount, then you can readily pick up on this).

There are a number of other similar advantages, but the character has to

a) have a clear background/ cultural link to horses

b) have a specific horse that they ride regularly (with name and personality described)

D.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue May 12, 2009 11:38 am

Grey wrote:
Not sure if this is going a bit off topic, but the earlier 'empathic' mount discussion has got me thinking, especially as a rider myself, in terms of what happens when out and about on horseback.

I tend to allow 'bonded' mounts to give bonuses to various SIEGE rolls such as adding the horses HD as a bonus to CHA rolls for intimidation attempts (you wouldn;t believe how threatening you can be if your horse co-operates!).

I also give a bonus to WIS rolls for surprise if the rider has a horse they are bonded with (horses often pick up on things the rider doesn't, and if you really know your mount, then you can readily pick up on this).

There are a number of other similar advantages, but the character has to

a) have a clear background/ cultural link to horses

b) have a specific horse that they ride regularly (with name and personality described)

D.

Sounds good, hoss. How hard would some of your ideas be able to be transferred to an animal companion?
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Grey · Post by **Grey** » Tue May 12, 2009 11:50 am

Dynel,

Thanks for the response! I think that the basic ideas should easily be transferable to any animal companion, although the player and CK should probably determine what sort of bonuses would apply based upon the animal type, and how it could enhance the characters ability directly (i.e. not magically like a familiar) - for example the bonus to rolls against sursprise could work with companion dogs (or wolves) etc.

There may need to be some discussion (not so sure how well a companion ferret would benefit a character directly!) and I would probably limit the benefits to only a couple of bonuses or so, based on the animal type and personality (for example, the bonus to intimidate would be fine for my horse, as she has been known to frighten people, but my wife's horse wouldn't get the bonus, as she's way too sweet!)

To me the main drive would be to promote players to invest some time and effort into describing animal companions/ mounts and giving some benefit if they do.

D.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:18 pm

Grey wrote:
Dynel,

Thanks for the response! I think that the basic ideas should easily be transferable to any animal companion, although the player and CK should probably determine what sort of bonuses would apply based upon the animal type, and how it could enhance the characters ability directly (i.e. not magically like a familiar) - for example the bonus to rolls against sursprise could work with companion dogs (or wolves) etc.

There may need to be some discussion (not so sure how well a companion ferret would benefit a character directly!) and I would probably limit the benefits to only a couple of bonuses or so, based on the animal type and personality (for example, the bonus to intimidate would be fine for my horse, as she has been known to frighten people, but my wife's horse wouldn't get the bonus, as she's way too sweet!)

To me the main drive would be to promote players to invest some time and effort into describing animal companions/ mounts and giving some benefit if they do.

D.

You're quite welcome! I'm beginning to envision an interesting system. I think that having a certain animal companion/mount and having a few bonuses for having that comapanion (and having the bonuses vary depending on the companion/mount) would be an interesting system. I think that would be a great engine for roleplaying.
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Aldarron · Post by **Aldarron** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:08 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
You're quite welcome! I'm beginning to envision an interesting system. I think that having a certain animal companion/mount and having a few bonuses for having that comapanion (and having the bonuses vary depending on the companion/mount) would be an interesting system. I think that would be a great engine for roleplaying.

Sounds somewhat like Tom Moldvey's Allati kit for his Taltos class presented in Dragon 247 - "The allati is a barbarian taltos kit. The taltos rider belongs to a clan whose totemic animal is typically a steed or mount. The taltos rider is able to befriend and train that animal,

even if the animal is not normally a riding beast." Moldvey has the allati form a psychic bond with the beast so that damage to one somewhat affected the other. You might want to check out the article for ideas.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:53 am

Aldarron wrote:
Sounds somewhat like Tom Moldvey's Allati kit for his Taltos class presented in Dragon 247 - "The allati is a barbarian taltos kit. The taltos rider belongs to a clan whose totemic animal is typically a steed or mount. The taltos rider is able to befriend and train that animal,

even if the animal is not normally a riding beast." Moldvey has the allati form a psychic bond with the beast so that damage to one somewhat affected the other. You might want to check out the article for ideas.

Damn, bro, that's sweet! Thanks for the heads up on that!
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:43 am

Somebody on these boards had an amazon character class made up already. I know because they told me.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:51 pm

I wrote up a Diablo II inspired amazon, just to see if it would work.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:52 pm

serleran wrote:
I wrote up a Diablo II inspired amazon, just to see if it would work.

How did it do?
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Barbarians as a Race/Culture, not Class....

Barbarians as a Race/Culture, not Class....

Re: Barbarians as a Race/Culture, not Class....

Re: Barbarians as a Race/Culture, not Class....