Wow, just played 4e from the other side of the DM's screen!!

DaveyB · Post by **DaveyB** » Sat May 09, 2009 8:17 pm

Well, lately I've been kinda' burned out DM'ing 4e, so I let one of the other guys in our group take over the reins of DM for a while so that I could experience 4e from the player's side. Wow! This is the first time I've played a game where I'd say it's harder for the player to play the game than the DM! Now it could be that I didn't know my characters very well, but playing a 4th level character in older editions (even 3.x) wasn't nearly as time consuming. Half the time is spent figuring out how to best use which power and when.

The first encounter we fought was with a group of 60 zombie minions (zombie breakout) from the local cemetery. Obviously being minions I figured the fight would go quickly, but even controlling two characters a piece it dragged on for about 15 minutes or more (most likely more as I wasn't keeping time). Then came a fight with about 8 stirges and 4 ghouls. That took even longer and saw the wizard with one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel! Normally this would be cool except that it's hard to get into character when you're constantly fumbling with powers deciding which to use when. Maybe I have to become more familiar with my characters like I said, but with the somewhat large gaps of thumb-twiddling here and there waiting for other players, it gets kinda' boring to be honest. Factor in marks and extra ongoing damage, plus the powers from magical items and it's overwhelming.

I never had to remember this many things in 3.x and prior. If I was a fighter I swung my big-#ssed sword and did damage. I didn't have to worry about combat challenge, five or six different powers, magic item powers, did I take a short rest to regain my encounter powers, etc. Maybe this just shows I'm getting older or 4e isn't the system I thought it was. You know it's a bad sign, however, when the barbarian player has to use the back of his character sheet to determine how much damage he just did........
I was going to continue using 4e as my game to DM since it's really easy to DM but I may switch to C&C for my game and let the current guy continue to run his and just rotate off and on. This was his first time running 4e, so I don't think he's caught on to the art of 4e encounter design yet. I hope it gets more interesting, but I can only see things miring even more. Just figured I'd share my experiences with the system as a DM turned player. As a player at this point, I do not like the system as simpler systems get the same results in a faster amount of time and get on with the story. Not so with 4e....yet.

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sat May 09, 2009 8:49 pm

I am resisting the urge to get buck wild on this.

Just one point. How long would it take to run a battle between a 4th level group and 60 1hp zombies in any other game say AD&D or C&C. just thinking of this gives me a headache. It would take five minutes just to physically move the zombies across the table each turn.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat May 09, 2009 9:12 pm

Yeah, when I played my level 11 Avenger last game day I really didn't even know what was going on in the combat because I was spending so much time figuring out which power to use, if I could use it, and how many times I could use it. I'm sure familiarity would help, but 4E definitely isn't my favorite game, and this "issue" is why I rank GURPS above it. I think GURPS is easier to play.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat May 09, 2009 9:14 pm

concobar wrote:
I am resisting the urge to get buck wild on this.

Just one point. How long would it take to run a battle between a 4th level group and 60 1hp zombies in any other game say AD&D or C&C. just thinking of this gives me a headache. It would take five minutes just to physically move the zombies across the table each turn.

It really bugs you when people don't see things your way, doesn't it.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sat May 09, 2009 10:06 pm

Treebore wrote:
It really bugs you when people don't see things your way, doesn't it.

Not at all. Do you think you could run a 60 1hp zombie vrs lvl 4 party fight in C&C in under 15 minutes tree?
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Sat May 09, 2009 11:05 pm

60 enemies is hard to adjudicate in any game system.

period.

that said, always open with your encounter powers. save the dailies for after your second wind in case your running out of healing surges.

This is my meta-analysis from the postings of others and the QS rules. I think it's a solid plan. thoughts?

if I figgered that out correctly, is the game borken?

I dunno. I kinds feel that if a regular old melee attack is a bad idea, the game is too complex or silly and muchkinish. just me. and in all fairness, i've never played it.

(Thread drift)

I'd like to see a Dragonborn conversion for C&C!

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat May 09, 2009 11:20 pm

Relaxo wrote:
60 enemies is hard to adjudicate in any game system.

period.

that said, always open with your encounter powers. save the dailies for after your second wind in case your running out of healing surges.

This is my meta-analysis from the postings of others and the QS rules. I think it's a solid plan. thoughts?

if I figgered that out correctly, is the game borken?

I dunno. I kinds feel that if a regular old melee attack is a bad idea, the game is too complex or silly and muchkinish. just me. and in all fairness, i've never played it.

(Thread drift)

I'd like to see a Dragonborn conversion for C&C!

Do you have a racial write up to share? I only have dragonborn written up as a class.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sat May 09, 2009 11:36 pm

Relaxo wrote:
60 enemies is hard to adjudicate in any game system.

period.

Thats my point exactly.

Relaxo wrote:
that said, always open with your encounter powers. save the dailies for after your second wind in case your running out of healing surges.

This is my meta-analysis from the postings of others and the QS rules. I think it's a solid plan. thoughts?

if I figgered that out correctly, is the game borken?

Screw that! I say drop daily powers like wrath from the gods on the first group of monsters you meet if that doesn't kill them go to the encounters powers and if that doesn't finish the blighters off just use which ever at will does the most damage until the monsters are all dead. then go back to your inn and rest for not less than 6 hours so that your daily ability will recharge. rinse and repeat.

Sounds like playing a mage in all the vancian editions.

Relaxo wrote:
I dunno. I kinds feel that if a regular old melee attack is a bad idea, the game is too complex or silly and muchkinish. just me. and in all fairness, i've never played it.

I agree! only spell casters should be able to do useful effects especially at the higher levels. I mean, if I wanted to actually have to think about what my fighter is gonna do I would go play a MMORPG!

Relaxo wrote:
(Thread drift)

I'd like to see a Dragonborn conversion for C&C!

The only race (so far) i do not allow in my greyhawk campaign.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat May 09, 2009 11:44 pm

DOH! I remembered I own the PH!

Racial basics:

Height range: 6' 3" to 6" 9"

Weight Range: 230 to 320 pounds

Ability Score Modifiers: STR +1, CHA +1

Size: Medium

Move: 30, cannot run at x4, x3 max.

Vision: as Humans

Languages: Common, Dragon tongue

Bonus': +1 to any history checks, +1 to any intimidation checks.

Dragons Fury: Whenever a Dragon born is taken to half HP, or more, they gain a +1 to hit attacks from going into a "fury". Fury ends once opponents are dead or run away, or HP restored to above 50%.

Dragon Inheritance: You gain an additional +1 HP per HD, on top of any CON bonus/penalty.

Dragon Breathe: Breathe one type of breathe as a Dragon (choose color/breathe type) for 1d6 damage for each 3 levels of the character. So 1d6 at 1st, 2d6 at 4th, 3d6 at 7th, and so on...

Range/OoE: 15 foot long, 5 foot wide straight line starting at PC's mouth.

CL=Level of the PC, +2, so at 4th level the CL=6.

Breathe at least 1/day, +1x/day per 2 points of CON above 10. It takes at least 2 rounds for a dragon born to be ready to breathe again. So a dragon born can breathe as fast as on rounds 1, 4, 7, and so on.

Class Preferences: They prefer to be physical, so tend to fighter, knight, and Paladins, but any class is possible.

Alignment: Any, but tend to have at least one component in common with their draconic ancestry, but is not a fixed rule.

Physical Description: Dragon born are human shaped dragons, they can even have vistigial (?) but non functioning wings. They have very fine but obvious scales, and their color range depends on ancestry. So the character could be red, blue, white, silver, gold, copper, titanium, mithril, Purple, etc...

They definitely look more draconic than human, with heavy brow, sharp teeth, ear holes, exceptionally tall and heavy (6' 6" and 280 pounds on average), and their voices typically have a hissing and growling quality. Their eyes are most commonly black, gold, or red, other colors are also possible, and usually coincide with ancestry on their draconic side, but not always. Very human eyes are known to occur.

Dragon born mature much faster than humans. Once given birth to, or hatched, dependent upon mother, they walk within hours, are equivalent to a 10 year old human by age 3, and reach adulthood by 12. Their lifespan is equivalent to humans, but often live 20 to 30 years longer.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sun May 10, 2009 12:10 am

that is a really good conversion tree. well done.

Only change I would make would be to add barbarian and bard to preferred classes.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun May 10, 2009 12:11 am

concobar wrote:
that is a really good conversion tree. well done.

Thanks! I think if falls on the C&C side of the power curve. I hope.
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DaveyB · Post by **DaveyB** » Sun May 10, 2009 3:08 am

concobar wrote:
I am resisting the urge to get buck wild on this.

Just one point. How long would it take to run a battle between a 4th level group and 60 1hp zombies in any other game say AD&D or C&C. just thinking of this gives me a headache. It would take five minutes just to physically move the zombies across the table each turn.

Well I never said I totally disliked the system. It does many things better than 3.x (almost all things). Looking back at the write-up for the session, it looks like I just need to learn my characters better. Like I also said, the new guy didn't properly build the encounters (obviously). So please don't take this as another "trash 4e" thread. 'Twas not it's intent!

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun May 10, 2009 4:45 am

Yes, I could run 60 zombies against a party of 4th levels PCs in under 15 minutes., with one caveat: we assume things do not degenerate into a "I roll a 1 thirty times in a row." No board, no minis. Zombies always go last, so it really only matters what the players do -- if they act stupidly, it might take longer... or if they miss a whole lot, but, against 60 of them... well, the first thing they would want to do is RUN! How does the party know these particular creatures have 1 HP only? At this level, by the way, the cleric should be blasting the hell out of them with turning (again, poor rolls might make it take longer), and the other classes have equally impressive things to do (are these zombie humans, or are they zombie kobolds? If the latter, the fighter gets to use his "combat dominance" [I say that only because these creatures have 1 HP and are, therefore, not normal C&C zombies who would have a minimum of 2, so the normal rules can be abandoned]) and so on and so forth...

Yeah, 60 is a large number, but it can also be broken down into smaller encounter sets, if needed... rather than 60 at once (basically a single creature with multiple attacks and one HP "pool" which used to be called a swarm) one can institute a "mass attack" rule.

This would very easy for me to resolve in either AD&D, D&D (any edition) or C&C -- in another game system, it might take some more thinking about to get the core concept down, but I guarantee it could be dealt with in under 15 minutes.

Or, at least, I know I could do it with the right players.
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SoulCatcher78 · Post by **SoulCatcher78** » Sun May 10, 2009 11:16 am

60 zombies in 15 minutes or less sounds about right for 4E. Getting used to how the character powers/attacks work seems to be the hard part with 4th edition.

I suggest starting with 1st level characters and building on the knowledge that comes from using a limited amount of powers and progressing to biger and better ones. No matter the game, if you've never played it before, starting with more options usually only leads to confusion.

Because of how the attacks work in 4E, using a grid is important (push/pull/etc) but it can surely be done without it. You just have to be willing to accept that the person running the game knows what he's doing as far as range/movement (kinda like we do with most other RPGs).

GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Sun May 10, 2009 12:08 pm

Quote:
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 9:49 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am resisting the urge to get buck wild on this

This needs to be in your Signature!!
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sun May 10, 2009 1:03 pm

I think it would take five or more minutes just to move the zombies each round.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun May 10, 2009 3:33 pm

concobar wrote:
I think it would take five or more minutes just to move the zombies each round.

Really?

"Okay, all you guys have gone, and fired your missle weapons on the zombie hoard for the past few rounds, and all those who are entering melee have pulled out your weapons as they have advanced and the front lines are entering melee. Guy 1, four zombies are crowding around you. Guy 2, you have five zombies around you. Guy 3, you also have 4 zombies on you. Guys 4, 5, and 6, the zombies haven't made it to you yet but some are advancing past Guys 1, 2, and 3 and are making their way towards you."

*CK picks up 13 d20's [or rolls 1 d20 13 times] to represent the 13 that are in melee*

"Okay, Guy 1, two have hit you. Guy 2, two have hit you as well. Guy three, only one hit you"

*rolls for damage"

"Guy 1, you take 4 points from one, and 3 points from the other. Guy 2, you take 5 and 4 from your two attacks. Guy 3, the one that hit you pounded you for 7 points."

"Okay, Guys...it's your turn."

I don't think that would take much more than 5 minutes (it didn't take me 5 minutes typing it), and that's with the zombies attacking and moving. Maybe's that just me, though.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sun May 10, 2009 4:01 pm

Dynel and serleran both have adequately expressed my thoughts on this, except for one thing: if the players are stupid enough to have their characters wade into battle with odds of 6:1 against, I wouldn't even run the combat and declare it a TPK.

Remember, I don't reward stupidity.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun May 10, 2009 4:36 pm

Traveller wrote:
Dynel and serleran both have adequately expressed my thoughts on this, except for one thing: if the players are stupid enough to have their characters wade into battle with odds of 6:1 against, I wouldn't even run the combat and declare it a TPK.

Remember, I don't reward stupidity.

Indeed.

The scope of battles and the "heroicness" of the characters in C&C are vastly different from 4e. They've even made rules in 4e to allow the characters to be even more heroic than normally thought possible in previous games (minion rules). C&C goes back to a time where characters aren't destined to be superheroic. In fact, they're not much more powerful than normal folk.

So yeah, my brief illustration in my previous post was just to show that I think a combat in that scale can be done in C&C, and quickly (relatively speaking). But like Traveller said, it just isn't that feasible in C&C - the mechanics just aren't geared towards supermen like 4e is.
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jaguar451 · Post by **jaguar451** » Sun May 10, 2009 4:38 pm

Traveller wrote:
Dynel and serleran both have adequately expressed my thoughts on this, except for one thing: if the players are stupid enough to have their characters wade into battle with odds of 6:1 against, I wouldn't even run the combat and declare it a TPK.

Remember, I don't reward stupidity.

Grapple is not a friend of the outnumbered....

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun May 10, 2009 6:40 pm

jaguar451 wrote:
Grapple is not a friend of the outnumbered....

No, it absolutely, positively, is NOT the friend of the outnumbered.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun May 10, 2009 8:46 pm

one of the few things I've found to actually be a friend to the outnumbered is a doorway or a teleport spell.
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SoulCatcher78 · Post by **SoulCatcher78** » Sun May 10, 2009 10:31 pm

Swarms of minions are a great thing no matter which system you choose to use. What 4E has shown me is how much fun they can be in encounters (the looks on players faces when you keep describing the waves of critters coming down a hall). If a group lets themselves get surrounded, they're going to get destroyed in short order unless they can push them away (also true no matter what system). The idea is to make an encounter like that challenging and make the players keep one step ahead of the horde/swarm/whatever. If they can't keep moving they're zombie chow.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun May 10, 2009 10:56 pm

Yeah, soulcatcher. I've toyed with the idea of minions, but have not implemented them yet.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon May 11, 2009 12:12 am

Actually, I've done a similar encounter not too long ago...

There are a couple things to note and a few things I did which are not strictly by the book at the encounter ran very well and under 15 minutes. I was using mini's but the numbers were more along the lines of 30 vs 4 player characters. They were Kobolds but had more than 1 hp apiece.

However, I ran them as 5 groups of 6... and each group had a single attack but hitpoints were counted individually.

It ran well.

Really, the biggest problem with these kinds of encounters is rolling individually for the mooks when there are large numbers of them. However, when the party levels are sufficiently high, casters start doing massive damage to multiple targets which cut down the odds. I like the notion of organized units 'fighting together' to make these still a threat and capable of hitting and dealing damage but don't like things to slow down.

I like the mook rules in 4th edition but I dislike the length of time it can take to play them out. This is nothing to do with the edition of the game (as someone else noted) but is something I've disliked back when I was playing AD&D and was using a lot of these low hp mooks. Combat was long -- though not using any mini's back then helped immensely as well.

M
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Mon May 11, 2009 12:28 am

Traveller wrote:
Dynel and serleran both have adequately expressed my thoughts on this, except for one thing: if the players are stupid enough to have their characters wade into battle with odds of 6:1 against, I wouldn't even run the combat and declare it a TPK.

you may have a point there.

DaveyB · Post by **DaveyB** » Mon May 11, 2009 12:49 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
Traveller wrote:
Dynel and serleran both have adequately expressed my thoughts on this, except for one thing: if the players are stupid enough to have their characters wade into battle with odds of 6:1 against, I wouldn't even run the combat and declare it a TPK.

Remember, I don't reward stupidity.

LordDynel wrote:
Indeed.

The scope of battles and the "heroicness" of the characters in C&C are vastly different from 4e. They've even made rules in 4e to allow the characters to be even more heroic than normally thought possible in previous games (minion rules). C&C goes back to a time where characters aren't destined to be superheroic. In fact, they're not much more powerful than normal folk.

This is very true. The power that a 4e character has over a normal C&C character is pretty large. Mix in healing surges and second wind and you can take quite a beating and fight on without worry. I'm not saying it's a bad thing by any means because some of the monsters are pretty nasty.

Also, we knew they were minions when someone hit one and it died on the first hit. The 60 zombies were broken up into two waves of 30 as they came from into the town. We used the terrain to our advantage and the Deva Avenger mowed through them with one ability that made a burst 1 area around him such that should any undead enter that 3x3 zone, it took 9 radiant damage.

Now that I think about it, it was probably 15 minutes or so, but I think it seemed longer because everyone was wrestling with what power to use when. Which is kind of surprising since we've been playing since 4e came out, so it's not like we're new to the system. This wast he first time I'd played as a PC though, so maybe that's why it seemed a bit more confusing. I think I just need to learn my characters better. I still think 4e is a fun system, but I think I might run Warhammer Fantasy or another system on another day so we can have two campaigns going.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon May 11, 2009 1:41 am

moriarty777 wrote:
Actually, I've done a similar encounter not too long ago...

There are a couple things to note and a few things I did which are not strictly by the book at the encounter ran very well and under 15 minutes. I was using mini's but the numbers were more along the lines of 30 vs 4 player characters. They were Kobolds but had more than 1 hp apiece.

However, I ran them as 5 groups of 6... and each group had a single attack but hitpoints were counted individually.

It ran well.

Really, the biggest problem with these kinds of encounters is rolling individually for the mooks when there are large numbers of them. However, when the party levels are sufficiently high, casters start doing massive damage to multiple targets which cut down the odds. I like the notion of organized units 'fighting together' to make these still a threat and capable of hitting and dealing damage but don't like things to slow down.

I like the mook rules in 4th edition but I dislike the length of time it can take to play them out. This is nothing to do with the edition of the game (as someone else noted) but is something I've disliked back when I was playing AD&D and was using a lot of these low hp mooks. Combat was long -- though not using any mini's back then helped immensely as well.

M

Thats fairly similar to the Battle Formation rules in DB5. Works like a charm for large encounters like that.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon May 11, 2009 3:07 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Thats fairly similar to the Battle Formation rules in DB5. Works like a charm for large encounters like that.

Yes... I was quite pleased when I saw that and, it was interesting to see where that optional rule and how I ran mine differed slightly.

It does work quite well though.

M
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon May 11, 2009 6:57 pm

Man, I bought DB5 and putmit on the shelf, because I was not ready to read it, but now I think I'm going to have to pull it out and read it to see these rules.
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