Harvesting poison from monsters

[Treebore]

serleran wrote:
As I understand that, that is essentially true. The black widow is a perfect example of "allergic reaction" much as a bee sting. However, it is not recommended to get yourself bit to see if you're lucky -- some people can take multiple bites and be fine, and others will simply die. There is a sort of related thing like that involving some types of cockroaches as well.

The "lower life forms" are vicious. Must be why there are millions of varieties. They keep killing off each other.

Yeah, I am pretty sure brown recluse, black widow, and scorpions fall into immune response, but I do not know what spiders and scorpions do not. Like I know there is one scorpion around here that is like the second or third deadliest in the world, so even though I have been stung with no problems, I'm certainly not going to go volunteer for more!

I also know I am a mutant. I have a 3 in 10,000 occurrence where I do not respond to toxins, in particular those given off by infections. Typically most people will have their immune system respond, run fevers, and possibly die. I don't respond. Which is a good thing. I found out about my mutation because I didn't die from an infection when anyone else would have. It was a big fist sized pocket of infection that had developed around some staples left inside of me by a Navy doctor/surgeon (read: Navy Doctor=MORON!). It had been inside of me for years. The doctor was curious as to how I could still be alive and found out about this 3:10,000 mutation that I clearly have.

So I also wonder if my mutation would help me with venoms. I certainly hope so.
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[Wulfgarn]

I think I would allow an assassin to harvest the toxin without much hassel if the poison sac is near the bussiness end of its fangs or whatever- as it is a major class ability. TRhat said I would not allow them to have the toxin for free exactly-

The poison would still need to be distilled and combined with othe elements

Save or die poisons should be rare and expensive to make.

I would almost look at poison creation like a Wizards Spellbook- the Assassin learns how to make certian poisons and collects recipies as he adventures.

this way the ck has some control over the process. Or perhaps limit the number of usable doses of the found poison - because of loss in experimenting with the poison etc.

I myself am going to exclude save or die poisons and leave it to hp Damage to kill not the save.

The Assassin can Kill with the Death Attack by failed save as it is.

[Lord Dynel]

Wulfgarn wrote:
I think I would allow an assassin to harvest the toxin without much hassel if the poison sac is near the bussiness end of its fangs or whatever- as it is a major class ability. TRhat said I would not allow them to have the toxin for free exactly-

The poison would still need to be distilled and combined with othe elements

Save or die poisons should be rare and expensive to make.

I can agree with this, sir.
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Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[Treebore]

I disagree. Snakes are essentially pretty easy to "milk", but crap happens and they still get bit, go to the hospital, receive permanent damage, etc...

So making it dangerous, and hard, will help keep things rare and expensive.

Not adding in such difficulties just opens the door to easy acquisition and having a Assassin, Druid, whatever, with a poison for every occasion. Not something a CK wants to deal with. Or at least I wouldn't. So I'll make it dangerous and difficult up front, and hope its enough to keep low level characters from running around with Type 6 poisons.

If not I would have to balance it out by having NPC's with Type 6 poisons on their weapons. Typically I hate such "nuclear war" like situations, so try to have such things escalate slowly over much time and many levels.

Like the spiders in the OP have save or die poison. I am sure Kayolan doesn't want our 5th/6th level party running around with such powerful poison easily killing the big tough monsters. Its called game balance.

Granted my Knight wouldn't use such poisons, just because, but whats stopping Argon form allowing your Assassin to put it on his sword? He hits often and with a lot of damage as it is. Add a save or die to every hit he makes, and his power level goes up to nuclear power level. At least with your assassin he misses a lot more often with his low BtH, so kind fo balances it out. The best balance would be to not even allow such a powerful poison to be harvested. So if my suggestion of a CL 15 or 18 check being needed, and you risking dying, gives a "realistic" in game reason for only higher level N/PC's, like 12th level or higher, having such poisons on a regular basis to begin with. Game balance is maintained, and the game mechanic helps reflect why such things are rare to begin with.
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[Aramis]

Treebore wrote:
The doctor was curious as to how I could still be alive and found out about this 3:10,000 mutation that I clearly have.

So I also wonder if my mutation would help me with venoms. I certainly hope so.

What are our chances of harvesting anti-toxins from Treebore?
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[serleran]

There is an easy system for this, if one were inclined:

Check vs. HD of creature. For each "Type," add +2 to the difficulty.

So, to get a type 6 poison from a 1 HD creature it would be a 1 + (6 x 2) = 13 difficulty.

To get a type 1 poison from an 11 HD creature, it would be 11 + 2 = 13.

This means the the more powerful the poison (even if easier to save against) it is harder to get, but weak poisons are easy to get, even if they are hard to save against.

Whatever check you make it against is up to the Castle Keeper. This is actually how this works in my Ruins and Radiations (tm) game, but you must be trained in it.
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Serl's Corner

[Wulfgarn]

Couple of rules points

The TN of the poison I make is based on my Assassin level

I dont think it should be Save or die Poison-

I guess I was unclear before - Save or Die Poisons should not be allowed in C&C . PERIOD.

The Seige Save system would make it far too dangerous PERIOD.

I believie that the Poison at save or die is okay for really powerful Monsters and if for some reason the players are able to harvest it the poison should not be able to be distilled down to be a save or die poison-

Like making a copy of a copy it should be weaker.

The poisons that add damage are good enough

As for sneaking poisons on your blade it would be good for a single successfuil hit....

Hope I cleared up my posistion on it...

Martin

I dont think that an Assassin should be at risk at all when making his poisons or extracting them - from Dead Critters - from live critters- maybe,

Druids and others are not so protected as it is not a class ability - only Assassins have immunity

[gideon_thorne]

Wulfgarn wrote:
Couple of rules points

The TN of the poison I make is based on my Assassin level

I dont think it should be Save or die Poison-

I guess I was unclear before - Save or Die Poisons should not be allowed in C&C . PERIOD.

The Seige Save system would make it far too dangerous PERIOD.

Umm.. Save or Die Poisons are allowed though. They just happen to be of the Type VI variety.
But what's a game without a risk of failure?
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[serleran]

And think, those instant kill effects are a whole whopping 1800 GP or something...

But, I won't go back to that. If Steve likes it, then it stays that way. I'll just change them in my games.
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Serl's Corner

[Treebore]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Umm.. Save or Die Poisons are allowed though. They just happen to be of the Type VI variety.
But what's a game without a risk of failure?

Type 5 allows for death too, you just have to fail the save twice to die, instead of once.

I have no problem with dying, once the game is to a level where death can be reversed. Yet another reason why I like my CL progression. In 12th level games death can be reversed.

I like your way too Serl, but my concern right now it that over all it would make CL's too high. With my system I am assuming deadly poison also equals complex/difficult to harvest from biological system.
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[serleran]

Quote:
I like your way too Serl, but my concern right now it that over all it would make CL's too high.

That's fine. I think that it should be hard to extract instant kill venom from very high challenge monsters (and anything else, for that matter, to better control the "market,") or everyone would have them and use them. I also would change the GP cost to 500 GP / difficulty.

So, for example, if you slay a 5 HD giant spider and want to get a type 6 venom from it, the difficulty is 5 + (6 x 2) = 17. This poison would have a save difficulty of 5, but if failed results in death. If it were purchased, it would cost 17 x 500 = 8500 gold pieces.

Same spider, but a mild hallucinogenic venom instead (say, Type 3) would be difficulty 11 to cultivate, have a save of 5 to resist, but cost 5500 gold pieces.

Hmm, I might need to stagger it some...

Type I = difficulty 2

Type II = difficulty 3

Type III = difficulty 5

Type IV = difficulty 6

Type V = difficulty 8

Type VI = difficulty 10
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Serl's Corner

[Treebore]

serleran wrote:
That's fine. I think that it should be hard to extract instant kill venom from very high challenge monsters (and anything else, for that matter, to better control the "market,") or everyone would have them and use them. I also would change the GP cost to 500 GP / difficulty.

So, for example, if you slay a 5 HD giant spider and want to get a type 6 venom from it, the difficulty is 5 + (6 x 2) = 17. This poison would have a save difficulty of 5, but if failed results in death. If it were purchased, it would cost 17 x 500 = 8500 gold pieces.

Same spider, but a mild hallucinogenic venom instead (say, Type 3) would be difficulty 11 to cultivate, have a save of 5 to resist, but cost 5500 gold pieces.

Hmm, I might need to stagger it some...

Type I = difficulty 2

Type II = difficulty 3

Type III = difficulty 5

Type IV = difficulty 6

Type V = difficulty 8

Type VI = difficulty 10

I try to stay as "rules standard" as possible, so for me the Save CL would be equal to the level of the Assassin/Alchemist who distilled it. Proper distillation is critical to potency, even in alcohol.

Plus with your example of getting a type 6 is fine with me, my system would actually be one higher than yours, no matter what the source, my CL is 18. My problem with your example is if the "source" is a 10 HD creature? So I see my system as rather constant, and predictable as to what level of character can have a reasonably safe chance of harvesting such things. So I know in my games that you will have to be at least a 12th level assassin to even think about harvesting and making such poisons safely.
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[Lord Dynel]

Treebore wrote:
I disagree. Snakes are essentially pretty easy to "milk", but crap happens and they still get bit, go to the hospital, receive permanent damage, etc...

So making it dangerous, and hard, will help keep things rare and expensive.

True, also. I believe there can be a mix of "easy to get" and "hard to get" poisons. If the assassin brings along some "milking gear" and utensils I believe that if the opportunity arises, that an assassin could harvest poison without too much trouble. And adding another thing for an assassin to do in the wild or dungeon is not a bad thing, IMHO.

Quote:
Not adding in such difficulties just opens the door to easy acquisition and having a Assassin, Druid, whatever, with a poison for every occasion. Not something a CK wants to deal with. Or at least I wouldn't. So I'll make it dangerous and difficult up front, and hope its enough to keep low level characters from running around with Type 6 poisons.

This is a CK issue. If he or she does not give the assassin access to such creatures on a regular basis, then there shouldn't be too much of a problem. Remember, the assassin (druid, or whoever) still has to encounter the creature.

Quote:
If not I would have to balance it out by having NPC's with Type 6 poisons on their weapons. Typically I hate such "nuclear war" like situations, so try to have such things escalate slowly over much time and many levels.

Like the spiders in the OP have save or die poison. I am sure Kayolan doesn't want our 5th/6th level party running around with such powerful poison easily killing the big tough monsters. Its called game balance.

Well, yeah, Tree, I agree. I don't don't think there should be any save or die poisons found at 1st level, or thereabouts. It should be appropriate for the character's level.

Yeah, if Kayolan meant that deadly a poison that low a level, I wouldn't allow that, either. Spiders from page 76, M&T 2nd print, no problem, though.

Quote:
Granted my Knight wouldn't use such poisons, just because, but whats stopping Argon form allowing your Assassin to put it on his sword? He hits often and with a lot of damage as it is. Add a save or die to every hit he makes, and his power level goes up to nuclear power level. At least with your assassin he misses a lot more often with his low BtH, so kind fo balances it out. The best balance would be to not even allow such a powerful poison to be harvested. So if my suggestion of a CL 15 or 18 check being needed, and you risking dying, gives a "realistic" in game reason for only higher level N/PC's, like 12th level or higher, having such poisons on a regular basis to begin with. Game balance is maintained, and the game mechanic helps reflect why such things are rare to begin with.

I agree. I think save or die poison should be extremely hard to get, cost a fortune, and be very, very difficult to harvest. It needs to be handled with care and not just be given out willy-nilly in a game.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[Lord Dynel]

Treebore wrote:
Type 5 allows for death too, you just have to fail the save twice to die, instead of once.

I have no problem with dying, once the game is to a level where death can be reversed. Yet another reason why I like my CL progression. In 12th level games death can be reversed.

I like your way too Serl, but my concern right now it that over all it would make CL's too high. With my system I am assuming deadly poison also equals complex/difficult to harvest from biological system.

I think the key is availability. Allowing players access to it via the CK is the main issue. I don;t know which way would be the better way. Tree, I understand your point, but I also think that as the tools of the assassin's trade, it should not be nect to impossible to get. The question is how much and how often is an assassin going to be able to get it...at least to me it is. I think I would allow a assassin as low at 7th-8th get it, but probably only one dose and probably for an exorbitant amount of money.

Overall, I wouldn't put too much more restriction on poisons than I would on allowing a caster to aquire Finger of Death, Power Word Kill, or Phantasmal Killer, the Prismatic spells or any other save or die spell. YMMV.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[Treebore]

Lord Dynel wrote:
I think the key is availability. Allowing players access to it via the CK is the main issue. I don;t know which way would be the better way. Tree, I understand your point, but I also think that as the tools of the assassin's trade, it should not be nect to impossible to get. The question is how much and how often is an assassin going to be able to get it...at least to me it is. I think I would allow a assassin as low at 7th-8th get it, but probably only one dose and probably for an exorbitant amount of money.

Overall, I wouldn't put too much more restriction on poisons than I would on allowing a caster to aquire Finger of Death, Power Word Kill, or Phantasmal Killer, the Prismatic spells or any other save or die spell. YMMV.

Well, the spiders Kayolan used were 5 HD types, I don't know if he used M&T versions or Rules Cyclopedia Versions, I just know he mentioned "5 HD" and "...have a save or die poison...". So he is looking at:

1. Don't use 5 HD spiders because their save or die is too powerful to let the 6th level party get their hands on, and never use them because they are too whimpy for 12th level parties, when such poison is possibly acceptable to Kayolan for us to have.

or

2. Have a system to where Kayolan can use the monsters whenever he wished, because the poison harvesting rules keeps such poisons out of the hands of low level parties.

Of the two options I would rather be able to use the spiders when appropriate at 5HD, and not have to worry about PC's getting their hands on something too powerful for their level.
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[Lord Dynel]

Treebore wrote:
Well, the spiders Kayolan used were 5 HD types, I don't know if he used M&T versions or Rules Cyclopedia Versions, I just know he mentioned "5 HD" and "...have a save or die poison...". So he is looking at:

1. Don't use 5 HD spiders because their save or die is too powerful to let the 6th level party get their hands on, and never use them because they are too whimpy for 12th level parties, when such poison is possibly acceptable to Kayolan for us to have.

or

2. Have a system to where Kayolan can use the monsters whenever he wished, because the poison harvesting rules keeps such poisons out of the hands of low level parties.

Of the two options I would rather be able to use the spiders when appropriate at 5HD, and not have to worry about PC's getting their hands on something too powerful for their level.

I agree with you, good sir. I'd personally use the 5 HD spiders from M&T, myself, ones that only do 1d10/1d8 + paralysis. Having save or dies at that level is tricky. But to each their own, though. If using save ordie poison using spiders at 5th level, I would tread with caution.
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Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[Relaxo]

Quote:
I would almost look at poison creation like a Wizards Spellbook- the Assassin learns how to make certian poisons and collects recipies as he adventures.

I'd just liek to say this sounds like a good idea too.

[anonymous]

Treebore wrote:
I disagree. Snakes are essentially pretty easy to "milk", but crap happens and they still get bit, go to the hospital, receive permanent damage, etc...

So making it dangerous, and hard, will help keep things rare and expensive ... Game balance is maintained, and the game mechanic helps reflect why such things are rare to begin with.

Milking snakes is dangerous because the snake is still alive and trying to bite you. The original question was about getting poison from dead monsters. Rules on poison acquisition are pure game balance (because the rules on poison started out so clumsy) and utterly divorced from reality: I'm looking out onto a laburnum tree now and it would not cost me the equivalent of buying 18 shire horses to grind up some seeds. Far better to simply rule that poison can't be extracted from dead monsters.