Village of Hommlet for 4E

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed May 27, 2009 11:43 am

They are capable of creativity. Their default setting is a great example. Excellent generic world with a very good feel and full of adventure possibility. Like them or not, they still have some very talented folks working for them that can crank out some good stuff.

I don't have faith enough in them to believe that they'll have enough sense to make use of existing settings in a way that I'll care for though. They could come up with the most brilliant and well written justification for introducing Dragonbornm to Oerth, but it wouldn't change the fact that they shouldn't.

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Wed May 27, 2009 2:45 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
I never understood their need to "explain" some changes. The game loses nothing if the changes are left out, so they should just leave them out.

Normally I would agree but there are some issues that need to be explained for there to be a 4e Greyhawk.

Eladrin have to be explained. they existed in greyhawk in one form or another all ready and should be covered. There are many things that are a part of greyhawk but have been changed by 4e that should be explained.

DangerDwarf wrote:
Leave Wee Jas as Wee Jas. Don't include the new races as core for that setting. I think WotC needs to realize its okay for the different settings to be...different.

The raven queen is or is strongly influenced by wee jas DD. check out canon fire for some of the discussions.
_________________

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed May 27, 2009 3:09 pm

That's where I differ in my thoughts and approach.

Eladrin? Call them grey elves and be done.

I know the Raven Queen is influenced by Wee Jas, but why concoct a story about how she changed her name? Call her Wee Jas and be done.

Most 4e Greyhawk conversions I've seen really over think the process in my opinion.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed May 27, 2009 7:29 pm

Sir Ironside wrote:
I love Greyhawk, it was my first real "world" I gamed in and will forever have that favourite place in my heart. I just know that the Greyhawk they are gonna do for 4e will be bastardized so much it'll have little resemblance to what Greyhawk truly should be.

I have no faith. None really. Please surprise me.

Right there with Ironside. I have no plans to get a 4e version of GH for that very reason - I fear that this version will be a poor facsimilie of what GH once was. I'd rather see it not produced at all than produced not in the spirit of what it should be.

DangerDwarf wrote:
Eladrin? Call them grey elves and be done.

I know the Raven Queen is influenced by Wee Jas, but why concoct a story about how she changed her name? Call her Wee Jas and be done.

Most 4e Greyhawk conversions I've seen really over think the process in my opinion.

Agreed.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Wed May 27, 2009 7:41 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
That's where I differ in my thoughts and approach.

Eladrin? Call them grey elves and be done.

I know the Raven Queen is influenced by Wee Jas, but why concoct a story about how she changed her name? Call her Wee Jas and be done.

Most 4e Greyhawk conversions I've seen really over think the process in my opinion.

She didnt change her name she hid it. Orcus seeks to learn the true name of the raven queen so that he might usurp her title as lord of the dead and add it to his title demon prince of undeath. There are some strong rumors that the raven queen killed nerull.

Eladrin are fey creatures from another dimension. you cant just call them grey elves and be done with it. Elves already exist and are not the same creature as an eladrin. ponder the fact that though there are half elfs there are no half eladrin.
_________________

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed May 27, 2009 7:49 pm

concobar wrote:
Eladrin are fey creatures from another dimension. you cant just call them grey elves and be done with it.

Yes you can. Ignore the fluff in the PHB. Viola! Her Fey Majesty Queen Yolande fits the bill quite nicely.

Quote:
ponder the fact that though there are half elfs there are no half eladrin.

Or...a half-elf is a half-elf. Outside of the drow you never seen the half-elves broken down by sub-type.

Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:06 pm

Why do I see Gary shaking his head over all this?! He was never was to be a big stickler with these things. If you want to go b-t-b (or canon), that's fine. But, it's still only fantasy and you can change things or put whatever you want into your world as you see fit. No coronaries please!!
I'm going to skip the 4e VOH and Greyhawk stuff. I have all I need with the 1ed & 2ed stuff to keep me occupied for a long, long time!
_________________
Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:08 pm

Deogolf wrote:
Why do I see Gary shaking his head over all this?! He was never was to be a big stickler with these things. If you want to go b-t-b (or canon), that's fine. But, it's still only fantasy and you can change things or put whatever you want into your world as you see fit. No coronaries please!!
I'm going to skip the 4e VOH and Greyhawk stuff. I have all I need with the 1ed & 2ed stuff to keep me occupied for a long, long time!

You immortal? Thats the only way I see you having enough time to use all of that!
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Wed May 27, 2009 9:04 pm

Treebore wrote:
You immortal? Thats the only way I see you having enough time to use all of that!

Why, yes I am!! Didn't you know that!
_________________
Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Wed May 27, 2009 10:23 pm

Deogolf wrote:
Why do I see Gary shaking his head over all this?! He was never was to be a big stickler with these things. If you want to go b-t-b (or canon), that's fine. But, it's still only fantasy and you can change things or put whatever you want into your world as you see fit. No coronaries please!!

That train of thought is well and fine for players, DM's or the like... that is what Mr. Gygax alluded to. But if your putting out a product and want it to be distinguishable from other products it becomes important that that product has things to distinguish itself from other similar products. By in part it naturally develops fans of that product as written and a fondness for the product which was developed because of what was produced. So, to ask people to chill out because change is no big deal, misses the whole point of why people are not chillin'.

If I understand your train of thought then WotC can just keep producing almost identical settings but just slap on a different cover and people should just chill cause it is no big deal.

There are things that warm my heart, in Greyhawk, that Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms or any other setting, of the time, did not. As a matter of fact I didn't much care for Dragonlance and only had a partial affair with Forgotten Realms. If all three of these worlds where similar, then why did I have such dramatic feelings towards each?

No I think you truly misunderstood what Mr. Gygax meant, but I never knew the man I can only go by what I've read over the intervening years.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu May 28, 2009 12:08 am

Deogolf wrote:
Why do I see Gary shaking his head over all this?! He was never was to be a big stickler with these things. If you want to go b-t-b (or canon), that's fine. But, it's still only fantasy and you can change things or put whatever you want into your world as you see fit. No coronaries please!! I'm going to skip the 4e VOH and Greyhawk stuff. I have all I need with the 1ed & 2ed stuff to keep me occupied for a long, long time!

Right there with you, hoss.

And I agree with DD on the elf/eladrin matter. But as was said before - the new races don't have to be added. Greyhawk's been going strong since the late 70's/early 80's (commercially) and it's done fine. The very changes it 4e brings to Greyhawk will probably turn as many people off as it draws.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Thu May 28, 2009 1:37 am

First, Eladrin are not elves, you have to accept that first. There are things about a 4e greyhawk that are going to have to be changed. How i believe it should be handled is that WotC should write the 4e greyhawk setting as if no other greyhawk material existed. start from scratch with 4e and a map of greyhawk. Write the eladrin into celene and pretend it has always been that way.

Second, why do you guys care what WotC does to the greyhawk setting? Aren't you guys playing in the ring of brass setting or home brews for the most part?
_________________

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu May 28, 2009 2:02 am

concobar wrote:
First, Eladrin are not elves, you have to accept that first.

Hmmm...they are in FR....Moon Elves and Sun Elves. Even the 4e PHB says they are sometimes called High Elves or Grey Elves in the racial description. If it looks like and elf, is related to an elf and is sometimes called an elf...its an elf.

Quote:
Second, why do you guys care what WotC does to the greyhawk setting? Aren't you guys playing in the ring of brass setting or home brews for the most part?

Because many of us are Greyhawk junkies and still use the setting.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu May 28, 2009 2:08 am

For the most part playing C&C Greyhawk here. It's a great setting, that never seems to get old.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Thu May 28, 2009 7:53 pm

Sir Ironside wrote:
That train of thought is well and fine for players, DM's or the like... that is what Mr. Gygax alluded to. But if your putting out a product and want it to be distinguishable from other products it becomes important that that product has things to distinguish itself from other similar products. By in part it naturally develops fans of that product as written and a fondness for the product which was developed because of what was produced. So, to ask people to chill out because change is no big deal, misses the whole point of why people are not chillin'.

If I understand your train of thought then WotC can just keep producing almost identical settings but just slap on a different cover and people should just chill cause it is no big deal.

There are things that warm my heart, in Greyhawk, that Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms or any other setting, of the time, did not. As a matter of fact I didn't much care for Dragonlance and only had a partial affair with Forgotten Realms. If all three of these worlds where similar, then why did I have such dramatic feelings towards each?

No I think you truly misunderstood what Mr. Gygax meant, but I never knew the man I can only go by what I've read over the intervening years.

Well, I did game on his front porch with him for six years, so I have a pretty good insight to what he would do and think. With that said, it doesn't mean that I know everything about Gary! But I do think he would not understand all this hoopla with world settings.
I use to let these things bother me and be a "by the book" type of player -

that changed after gaming with Gary and the guys associated with the group. We didn't get hung up on these types of things. "Have fun!" was the name of the game.

Gary has always said that the rules put forth were a set of guidelines, more or less. If you wanted to change something, go ahead and do it (i.e., Gods, spells, whatever). The world setting or module you were using was there to changed and/or altered as the DM saw fit. Just because something was in the book didn't mean you had to use it - it was there for you to chuck if you wanted to.

If WOTC doesn't put something in you think should be there, put it in yourself!
_________________
Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu May 28, 2009 7:58 pm

Deogolf wrote:
Gary has always said that the rules put forth were a set of guidelines, more or less. If you wanted to change something, go ahead and do it (i.e., Gods, spells, whatever). The world setting or module you were using was there to changed and/or altered as the DM saw fit. Just because something was in the book didn't mean you had to use it - it was there for you to chuck if you wanted to.

*chuckles* Ya. Haven't met one of these guys that play by the book yet. After all, why should they? They invented the concept.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Thu May 28, 2009 8:00 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Hmmm...they are in FR....Moon Elves and Sun Elves. Even the 4e PHB says they are sometimes called High Elves or Grey Elves in the racial description. If it looks like and elf, is related to an elf and is sometimes called an elf...its an elf.

Indeed, it says that eladrin are close cousins of the elves and are sometimes called high elves or grey elves. That does not make them elves any more than you are a high chimpanzee just because homo sapiens are close cousins to the great apes. Eladrin are actually less closely related to elves than humans are to the great apes.

Eladrin are not native to the realms and do not or can not reproduce with humans such as elves. If you read the racial descriptions in the PHB4e you will notice that there are more differences than not. The fact that elves have pupils in their eyes and can not teleport kinda stands out.

Of course i don't guess it really matters either way. I do admit I hate the various elf breeds with a passion so my views on eladrin as elves are biased. I would like to see wood humans, desert humans, high humans, and deep humans. all with different racial abilities and stat mods. I kid, I kid.

Quote:
Second, why do you guys care what WotC does to the greyhawk setting? Aren't you guys playing in the ring of brass setting or home brews for the most part?

DangerDwarf wrote:
Because many of us are Greyhawk junkies and still use the setting.

As do I and as have I in every incarnation of AD&D right up to D&D4e I have ever run.
_________________

Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Thu May 28, 2009 8:01 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* Ya. Haven't met one of these guys that play by the book yet. After all, why should they? They invented the concept.

Peter, you know what I mean!
_________________
Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Thu May 28, 2009 8:03 pm

Deogolf wrote:
If WOTC doesn't put something in you think should be there, put it in yourself!

well put.
_________________

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu May 28, 2009 8:11 pm

concobar wrote:
Indeed, it says that eladrin are close cousins of the elves and are sometimes called high elves or grey elves. That does not make them elves any more than you are a high chimpanzee just because homo sapiens are close cousins to the great apes. Eladrin are actually less closely related to elves than humans are to the great apes.

But, they way they are written is that they have always been what humans call gray elves. For me, it is easy to roll with it and not concoct an explanation for their appearance in GH. They've always been there.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu May 28, 2009 8:54 pm

concobar wrote:
I would like to see ....., high humans, and deep humans.

Try either Woodstock or any Beatnick Bar.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:28 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Try either Woodstock or any Beatnick Bar.

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:48 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Try either Woodstock or any Beatnick Bar.

Nice.
But it does bring up a interesting question and that is this. why does almost every non-human race in D&D have a mob of sub races that grant ability or racial powers while humans do not? why is a forest elf stronger thanm a city elf but a forest human no different than a city human stat wise? where is the logic in this?
_________________

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:51 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
But, they way they are written is that they have always been what humans call gray elves. For me, it is easy to roll with it and not concoct an explanation for their appearance in GH. They've always been there.

I don't disagree with this overall. If they do a GH rework just call them eladrin and pretend they have always been there.
_________________

Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:51 pm

Deogolf wrote:
Well, I did game on his front porch with him for six years, so I have a pretty good insight to what he would do and think. With that said, it doesn't mean that I know everything about Gary! But I do think he would not understand all this hoopla with world settings.
I use to let these things bother me and be a "by the book" type of player -

that changed after gaming with Gary and the guys associated with the group. We didn't get hung up on these types of things. "Have fun!" was the name of the game.

Gary has always said that the rules put forth were a set of guidelines, more or less. If you wanted to change something, go ahead and do it (i.e., Gods, spells, whatever). The world setting or module you were using was there to changed and/or altered as the DM saw fit. Just because something was in the book didn't mean you had to use it - it was there for you to chuck if you wanted to.

If WOTC doesn't put something in you think should be there, put it in yourself!

As the point was totally missed... and I have zero desire to clarify something that needs little clarification, I'll just leave it as is. A difference of opinion.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:58 pm

concobar wrote:
Nice.
But it does bring up a interesting question and that is this. why does almost every non-human race in D&D have a mob of sub races that grant ability or racial powers while humans do not? why is a forest elf stronger thanm a city elf but a forest human no different than a city human stat wise? where is the logic in this?

It all goes back to the archetype concept. Humans, by this model, are diverse and can advance in any class to any level. Other races are more specialised so have specific differences based on environment.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Fri May 29, 2009 1:58 pm

Sir Ironside wrote:
As the point was totally missed... and I have zero desire to clarify something that needs little clarification, I'll just leave it as is. A difference of opinion.

Whatever, dude!!
_________________
Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

CnD · Post by **CnD** » Fri May 29, 2009 2:48 pm

JediOre wrote:
If anyone has this 4ed. version and knows the original, what did Mr. Collins do beyond converting AD&D mechanics to 4th edition?

I know this is a bit late to the game, but I have a copy of the 4E VoH. One of my group members is into 4E and DMs in the RPGA, as does his 10yr old daughter, they both received copies of the module and he let me have one to read through.

To be honest I'm ignorant as to who Andy Collins actually is, never was into the 3.x edition of D&D, but from what is written in this introduction and "A Word from the Author" he seems like an ok guy, but from the comments here I guess that is not the case.

I made a detailed post over on the DF forums a while back, but here is a quick breakdown of what it is like.

Has an intro that gives some background on Gary, Greyhawk, the original module and the tie-in to T1-4.

Includes a double sided, full color map with the Inn on one side and the moat house courtyard on the other.

About half a dozen important locations in Hommlet are detailed out, the rest are left to the DM, they give information on the main NPCs in Hommlet, just like the ones from the original. There is one 4E addition, a sorcerer on the outskirts of the village that can join or help out the party if they wish.

The rest of the adventure is actually true to the module (from what I recall, even the giant frogs and ogre in the dungeon) except they added 4E stats. I haven't compared 100% but it seems the maps and layouts of the various levels within the moathouse are the same. The only other 4E addition is a dragonborn body guard for Lareth, the New Master, the rest of the critters and monsters all seem the same.

And at the end are some ideas for other branching adventures while around the village and a "Word from the Author" by A.C.

For better or worse, that is pretty much it in a nutshell.
_________________
So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their ending. - Bilbo Baggins, The Hobbit

It's all fun and games until someone gets eaten by a grue.

SoulCatcher78 · Post by **SoulCatcher78** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:24 pm

Thanks CnD.

I saw the post on DF and thought that it doesn't sound as bad as some are thinkingit might be (4E notwithstanding). I updated my info with them so we'll see if I get a copy in August or not.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat May 30, 2009 7:47 pm

CnD wrote:
I know this is a bit late to the game, but I have a copy of the 4E VoH. One of my group members is into 4E and DMs in the RPGA, as does his 10yr old daughter, they both received copies of the module and he let me have one to read through.

To be honest I'm ignorant as to who Andy Collins actually is, never was into the 3.x edition of D&D, but from what is written in this introduction and "A Word from the Author" he seems like an ok guy, but from the comments here I guess that is not the case.

I made a detailed post over on the DF forums a while back, but here is a quick breakdown of what it is like.

Has an intro that gives some background on Gary, Greyhawk, the original module and the tie-in to T1-4.

Includes a double sided, full color map with the Inn on one side and the moat house courtyard on the other.

About half a dozen important locations in Hommlet are detailed out, the rest are left to the DM, they give information on the main NPCs in Hommlet, just like the ones from the original. There is one 4E addition, a sorcerer on the outskirts of the village that can join or help out the party if they wish.

The rest of the adventure is actually true to the module (from what I recall, even the giant frogs and ogre in the dungeon) except they added 4E stats. I haven't compared 100% but it seems the maps and layouts of the various levels within the moathouse are the same. The only other 4E addition is a dragonborn body guard for Lareth, the New Master, the rest of the critters and monsters all seem the same.

And at the end are some ideas for other branching adventures while around the village and a "Word from the Author" by A.C.

For better or worse, that is pretty much it in a nutshell.

Andy is an OK guy, and obviously has some good ideas. I think its just people are jealous of his being married to F.M. Kestrel. http://www.bookfinder.com/author/gwendolyn-f-m-kestrel/

Gamers are always jealous of those who have gamer wives, let alone a heavily published RPG author wife.

I do agree that Andy may have contributed to 3E going in a direction I didn't like, but I think WOTC was going to publish a ton of books no matter what, and I doubt they would have done heavy fluff rather than crunch. I think the only way WOTC would have done things differently is if it was never sold to Hasbro.

Personally I just hope they make this Hommlet module available for sale, I want the nice pretty maps, and could care less about the content, since I already have it.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames