EV for Shortswords, Rapiers & Scimitars

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:21 am

Ok... this one didn't make much sense to me and I was wondering if this was some sort of error.

A rapier... which is a fairly light and non-bulky sword weighs 2 lbs and has an EV of 3.

A shortsword... which is a bit heavier weighs 3 lbs but has an EV of 2.

Could someone give me a rationale to this? I would immediately have assumed exact opposite!

As for the Scimitar... well I'm just unsure. It weighs 4 lbs and has an EV of 3. Aside from the 'look', why would anyone spend more on a heavier weapon which (as the book is written, has a higher EV) than the shortsword. Could someone give me an 'edge' with why I might want to use a scimitar over a shortsword. Personally I've considered a scimitar to be a slightly more refined weapon that a short sword but that's my opinion.

If the Scimitar and Rapier were EV's of 2... and the shortsword an EV of 3... that might work a bit better?

What do you guys think? Am I off base? The scimitar I'm kinda unsure about but the rapier is a different matter entirely!

Moriarty the Red
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:21 am

moriarty777 wrote:
Ok... this one didn't make much sense to me and I was wondering if this was some sort of error.

A rapier... which is a fairly light and non-bulky sword weighs 2 lbs and has an EV of 3.

A shortsword... which is a bit heavier weighs 3 lbs but has an EV of 2.

Could someone give me a rationale to this? I would immediately have assumed exact opposite!

As for the Scimitar... well I'm just unsure. It weighs 4 lbs and has an EV of 3. Aside from the 'look', why would anyone spend more on a heavier weapon which (as the book is written, has a higher EV) than the shortsword. Could someone give me an 'edge' with why I might want to use a scimitar over a shortsword. Personally I've considered a scimitar to be a slightly more refined weapon that a short sword but that's my opinion.

If the Scimitar and Rapier were EV's of 2... and the shortsword an EV of 3... that might work a bit better?

What do you guys think? Am I off base? The scimitar I'm kinda unsure about but the rapier is a different matter entirely!

Moriarty the Red

I think it is ok. EV takes into account bulk. If I remember how a rapier is, it is thinner yet longer than a shortsword, so its bulk is larger, even if it is lighter. Hence its larger EV.

Not all cultures used shortswords or scimitars. In general, not all weapons on the weapon list should be available at the same time in the same places. So, it does not make much sense to compare their statistics.

I see scimitars used by cultures who favor fighting from horseback, and in general it implies a different fighting style than the one used for shortswords, which are more piercing than slashing weapons.

So, I would point out the "cultural" and "style" difference of the two weapons.

Cheers,

Antonio

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:08 am

Thanks Antonio for replying so quickly. I can understand your point regarding the rapier being a few inches longer than your typical shortsword. However, consider the longsword for a moment which is a bit longer and twice as heavy than the rapier. According the listing as it is, they both have an EV of 3.

The cultural significance of the scimitar is something worth considering for sure but I was hoping to throw the question out there so to speak. Once again... with an EV of 3 and weight of 4 lbs... it matches the stats listed as a longsword.

Still curious

Moriarty the Red
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:20 pm

You could assume that the rapier contains a large "basket hilt" which in it's own right is bulky and make you conform to a certain fighting style. This would be completely different from a short sword, let's say a gladius.

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Nelzie · Post by **Nelzie** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:54 pm

I thought the EV only counted at the "standard" number for when the weapon was in a scabbard or sheath or carrier of some sort and when it is wielded, the EV drops by 1 point.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:58 pm

This -1 EV doesn't apply to weapons an such. Only to items that can be "worn" like clothes, backpacks, armor, etc. "carried items" do not get this sort of treatment like Swords, sheilds, horsehoes, etc.

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:56 pm

Not every rapier is a fencing weapon. They're not all thin-bladed, epee-like. Some are, especially in a Renaissance era game, but C&C defaults to Medieval/Dark Ages, where the rapier is more of a weapon akin to a broadsword (in fact, this was a style but after the fact so perhaps a tad out of place), though often a bit smaller.

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:20 pm

How about the 'poniard' stats? I never heard of sword with that name, but with it's weight and damage, a sword it must be...

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:25 pm

andakitty wrote:
How about the 'poniard' stats? I never heard of sword with that name, but with it's weight and damage, a sword it must be...

IIRC it is something like an heavy dagger with a very long handle.

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:39 pm

I don't know... Five pounds and 1D8, a dagger of any sort? I would like to know where they got this puppy.

cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:19 pm

Well, when designing the EVs, I had to take some things into account:

Size

Bulk

Weight

Materials

Since EV is a very small scale (few things should be over EV 6-10 and still be useful), you're going to see some bunching.

Rapiers are around 3 feet or more in length and tend to have somewhat ornate hilts, while most short swords (using the Gladius as the model) are around 2 feet and simple. While the rapier's blade is thin, an extra foot of metal still carries with it bulk. So, it might weigh less (due to its narrow design) but its size makes it as encumbering as most other swords (you'll see that most "long-style" swords hovered around EV 3 or 4... because they all weigh about the same and are around the same size)... this is a perfect example of why I chose to design the ENC system the way I did... sometimes small things are still hard to lug around (i.e. a bar of lead) while some large things are surprisingly light (an empty crate made of balsa wood).

If you don't like it, feel free to change it, of course, but that was my logic behind it.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:04 pm

Don't get me wrong... I *love* the EV system and I can see where bunching will happen. Time periods and culture won't have all these co-existing at the same time either... but hey, this is fantasy after all.

This somehow stuck out for me. I'll have to consider the matter further of course. However, since it was mentioned.

A 'poinard' is most similar to a dirk. It's blade tended to be longer and thicker and often triangular shaped. It was meant to be particularly effective driving through armor which is why there is the +2 to hot bonus against some types of armor. Aside from that, it is literally the french translation used for a dagger or dirk.

That being said, I don't see why it does a 1d8 or has an EV of 3. Even the weight (5 lbs) is wonky (which probably explains the EV of 3).

I may not end up changing the rapier... but after seeing this...

Damage for your typical poniard should not exceed 1d6 in any stretch of the imagination. Weight and EV... well... A poniard is in no heavier than a longsword (4 lbs) and not longer than a shortsword.

Once again, my thoughts on the poniard are my opinions probably fueled by my french background (I am french Canadian).

Moriarty the Red
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cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:25 pm

Ooops... the poniard was a mistake... it should be the same EV as a dagger or dirk... and probably shouldn't get the bonus to against chain and plate... for some reason I must have gotten it confused with the dozen or so pole-arms.

sorry.

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:32 pm

Oh. That's OK, I wasn't jumping on you or anything. Mostly I was wondering if I had missed a type of sword.

This got me wondering about the actual weight of these things, so I went to the Cold Steel site (they make real, usable sword replicas of good steel), and the actual weights are rather low. Large dirks and daggers run about 1 pound, the bastard sword (and it's a beauty) 3 pounds, and a huge greatsword around seven pounds (109.5 ounces). Much lighter than I thought...

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:48 pm

cheeplives wrote:
Ooops... the poniard was a mistake... it should be the same EV as a dagger or dirk... and probably shouldn't get the bonus to against chain and plate... for some reason I must have gotten it confused with the dozen or so pole-arms.

sorry.

Hey... no worries! Mistakes happen and when you got other weapons sporting french-like names (like the Bec de Corbin and such) and so... many... polearms, I can easily understand! Great job though. For the poniard, I'll probably base the states off the dagger or dirk and restrict it to certain areas in my campaign.

Thanks again!

Moriarty the Red
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:49 pm

andakitty wrote:
Oh. That's OK, I wasn't jumping on you or anything. Mostly I was wondering if I had missed a type of sword.

This got me wondering about the actual weight of these things, so I went to the Cold Steel site (they make real, usable sword replicas of good steel), and the actual weights are rather low. Large dirks and daggers run about 1 pound, the bastard sword (and it's a beauty) 3 pounds, and a huge greatsword around seven pounds (109.5 ounces). Much lighter than I thought...

I'm glad you jumped in actually, I hadn't noticed that... and I now have a site I can visit!

Thanks,

Moriarty the Red
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imperialus · Post by **imperialus** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:07 pm

andakitty wrote:
Oh. That's OK, I wasn't jumping on you or anything. Mostly I was wondering if I had missed a type of sword.

This got me wondering about the actual weight of these things, so I went to the Cold Steel site (they make real, usable sword replicas of good steel), and the actual weights are rather low. Large dirks and daggers run about 1 pound, the bastard sword (and it's a beauty) 3 pounds, and a huge greatsword around seven pounds (109.5 ounces). Much lighter than I thought...

Even weapons like maces, warhammer and battleaxes tend to be a lot lighter than hollywood would have us believe. Armour too tends to be quite a bit lighter than most think. The Wallace collection has a suit of 16th century armour which weighs 65.6 lbs total. http://www.varmouries.com/vweights.html When you consider that the combat load of an GI during WWII was between 82 and 98 lbs of gear, 65 lbs of armour is pretty light. http://www.45thdivision.org/Pictures/Ge ... atload.htm

It all comes down to the myth that knights were brutish thugs that bashed each other over the head with iron bars until one fell down. In reality a knight on foot was quite capable of moving around independently. The best example of this I can think of off the top of my head is "The Last Duel" by Eric Jager who uses primary source accounts to describe the last judicial trial by combat in France in 1386. Towards the end of the duel both combatants were rolling about in the dirt wrestling with each other in full armour. Hardly lying on their backs like turtles after being knocked off their horses.

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:36 pm

Some movies have been more accurate than others. Have you ever seen El Cid? Specifically the duel between El Cid and the King's champion?

Still, modern troops shed a lot of the load when it gets down to combat. Can you imagine wearing thirty+ pounds of chainmail in Palestine in the summer during a day long battle? Even if the weapons were only three or four pounds. Those guys were tough cookies!

johns · Post by **johns** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:16 pm

Re: Hollywood's depiction of medieval weaponry, I just saw Prince Valiant, starring Robert Wagner. The swords these dudes were using looked hilarious - like something kids would swing around in a school play.

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:21 am

Yep, the king's sword was ludicrous, wasn't it? Some of the movies from that period were pretty serious, though. El Cid, Sword of Lancelot, The Black Prince and others had some pretty serious hardware. As I remember.

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:52 pm

For those who are interested, I have completely revised the armament section of the players handbook in my house rules (they can be found on the linked page in my sig). I think I have reasonably well addressed most of these issues.
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stoneshape · Post by **stoneshape** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:42 pm

hi

rapier should be more ev than shortsword for reasons already mentioned

scimitar, the curve allows for a larger cutting surface area, ability to draw through your hit is increased. as to damage well they come in many sizes, horseback was mentioned briefly and here is where i think an in game difference from shortsword could be made, the curve of the blade i believe would grant more striking options, but more importantly you would be less likely to suffer drag from scoring a hit, again the curve of the blade allows more readily the disengagement of weapon from armour...

as far as i know there are no rules for being unsaddled do to weapon getting locked in armour of course you would just drop your weapon in such situations. so +1 to hit from horseback seems realistic to me, but if you allow various scimitar sizes not many will use long or bastardswords while mounted.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:33 pm

Hi Stoneshape (and all others expressing interest)

I have opted not to mess with the EVs for the weapons in question but one of the reasons I was looking at EV was to help differentiate these weapons better from one another (otherwise, why not just take a shortsword arguement pops up).

This is what I've houseruled regarding the weapons.

1) The Short Sword can both equally be used for Slashing & Piercing for 1d6.

2) The Rapier primarily is used for Piercing for 1d6+1

3) The Scimitar primarily is used for Slashing for 1d6+1

I know the Scimitar, with its design, offers more advantages in a combat situation and maybe at some point I'll houserule other things to take advantage of that fact. However, in order to be true to the spirit of C&C, I tried to find a simple solution. In the case of the Rapier and Scimitar, I noticed that in 3.x the both had the same yet greater threat range than the shortsword did. To simulate this, I gave both weapons a +1 while acknowleding the shortsword has more 'versatility' in terms of how it is used in combat.

Thanks again!

Moriarty the Red
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andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:51 pm

Hey, I just got through watching 'Rome' on DVD and once again I am left with the impression that the gladius (aka shortsword) is vastly underrated in rpgs. It looked like the standard technique was to stab down over the opponents' shield while crowding him so closely he couldn't use a longer sword effectively. If no shield, then you close and stab multiple times...it looked very, very fast and very effective if you could get close to your opponent. Longer swords were preferred for cavalry, apparently.

Oh, and usually the winners didn't fight fair.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:36 pm

LOVE that show... I can't wait for Season 2

But yeah, the gladius was a nice weapon and was versatile one too. However, as much as it seems like the shortsword is getting the shortend... You'd probably have to work on a different combat mechanic to take advantage of what you suggest.

Then again, this is where you can have fun with the narrative and incorporate these vivid descriptions (when you're player rolls a critical with the shortsword perhaps). It doesn't have to have a necessary mechanic to incorporate into the game.

Or... if you rather... if someone tries to replicate this maneuver in combat, have some sort of check and if successful, apply bonuses or penalties as you deem fit. Massive to hit penalties on the behalf of the victim... Bonus damage on the behalf of the attacker. Some sort of successful check required.

Moriarty the Red
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andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:37 pm

True enough. The only rpgs I know that could that can do something like that with the mechanics would be Stormbringer 5 and Talislanta 4. That I have experience of.

I am tempted to boost the shortsword damage as compared to the other weapons next time I run something, though. Other things got me to thinking too, though. Like what Sorenus did to the big gladiator's leg with the longish falchion type sword. Ouch. Like RQ2.

stoneshape · Post by **stoneshape** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:04 pm

hi

the short sword has its advantages, the stab, durability, ease of manufacture, ease to sharpen, double edge, possible concealment, and compared to the scimitar less encumberance

if i could only have one i'd take the short sword

yes the gladiola is an excellant weapon. i believe a little shorter than many would think.

not much beats a shield to the face and a thrust to belly, except a well trained legion doing the same thing with you!!!

i bet as far as death by specific weapon type goes, the gladiola is way up there. of course there are many reasons for this but its simple effectiveness cannot be denied, oh don't forget the sheild, never forget your shield!

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:23 pm

Yeah, I read a book -I wish I could remember the title- in which the author speculated that the Roman gladius killed more people than any other close combat weapon in history. It was a book on the history and technology of swords. He thought other sword types such as the katana and rapier were superior in some ways, but it was the gladius that was used as a standard infantry weapon by the largest, best equipped and well trained army in history in battle after battle for nearly a thousand years...

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EV for Shortswords, Rapiers & Scimitars

EV for Shortswords, Rapiers & Scimitars

Re: EV for Shortswords, Rapiers & Scimitars