First Impressions of StarSiege

[pikaia]

First of all, I'm a roleplaying fan, but haven't had a lot of experience or opportunities to play, the bulk of my RPG experience is in D&D. I started with 2nd Ed. and most of my playing experience is in AD&D. I did pick up the 3rd ed. books and read through them, but never really had a chance to use them since I've only recently connected with some gaming fans, aside from my long running play-by-post game. Since I never had a chance to actually play, my understanding of 3rd Ed rules are "ok" at best. I have to say having little experience, the piles of feats and skills and all the new rules really left me scratching my head most of the time. (It took me quite a few days to figure out how to calculate Encounter Level... which I'm still not entirely clear on). What I've always wanted was a light system that got the job done in a believable fashion, without slowing down the game in an unending rules bonanza. Which is where C&C comes in.

I finally got into a C&C table top game in April, and let me tell you, its everything I'd hoped for. I've always been a Scifi fan and have had an idea for a scifi game for a long time, but never really knew which rules system would fit the niche of what I wanted. So when I saw TLG had a scifi system using the SIEGE engine, I quickly snatched it up. I read through the rules those first 2 days after picking them up.

Honestly, my first reading left me regretting the purchase. I was expecting C&C in space (as I see some others were also expecting) but it wasn't, AT ALL. But I kept going back, knowing that my lack of gaming experience was going to be a hurdle in comprehending all these new rules. It wasn't until I played a game of 7th Sea last week that I began to get excited again for StarSiege... I see similarities between the systems and started to understand it a bit better.

I haven't had a chance to actually get this onto the table, I'm actively writing my Graduate Thesis... but I'm now excited about the potential. I'm still foggy on (more than) some of the rules, but it is becoming clearer. The Siege engine is here, just utilized in a slightly different manner. Ability scores, aren't scores at all, they are just modifiers (which is really the point in most cases anyway). And its skill based. All of this was a big pill to swallow.

With this in mind, this is my first impressions.

There is a lot of flexibility. The system allows for nearly any type of world design, from post apocalyptic to Star Wars, to Firefly. You can integrate any one of these genres fairly easily. Despite my initial woes, the skill based system allows for a more diverse character. Everyone doesn't have to fill an archetype, like some RPGs.

My only real gripe at this stage is with the layout of the book. It isn't intuitive at all... at least to me. I have to bounce from Field Manual to Operations Manual constantly just to figure out the basic flow of the game. Even basics like character creation and skill checks aren't as straight forward as I feel it could be. The combat example in the back of the Operations Manual helps a bit but not enough.

The pregen characters aren't clear either. I've seen shooting bonuses for weapons that don't match the ones in the book... how is this achieved?

I think the outline of the Field Manual (Players Handbook) should be more straight forward character creation (Abilities, Skills, & specialties), and equipment. Things that aren't going to be a constant in all games, like Psionics, Cybernetics, and Taint could be funneled to the back as optional rules. The Operations Manual should first and foremost describe the basic flow of the game. Things like skill checks, use and allocation of XP, and how to apply modifiers to skill rolls. Which are there, but very sporadically placed. It might benefit by having a full page of examples: skill checks, taking damage example, (Also it says that players always suffer penalties when they take any damage, but I don't see those penalties described anywhere. When are the disabled, down and out boxes used?).

Despite my issues with the layout of the books, the game itself looks great. The rules system seems very customizable and useful in potentially any scifi setting. However the overall flow and ease of the book makes it difficult to understand for those of us who haven't seen many different rules systems. The more I read, the more I realize that I have a lot of questions about this game. However it doesn't stop me from trying to push through it.

[Sir Ironside]

pikaia wrote:
However it doesn't stop me from trying to push through it.

I've heard very similar things from others and if I was TLG I'd be a tad concerned. I know if I have to work at learning the rules, then it becomes un-fun quickly, I lose interest, then regret the purchase. As much as I would like a C&C like sci-fi game I'm holding off buying this.

[pikaia]

Quote:
I've heard very similar things from others and if I was TLG I'd be a tad concerned. I know if I have to work at learning the rules, then it becomes un-fun quickly, I lose interest, then regret the purchase. As much as I would like a C&C like sci-fi game I'm holding off buying this.

Its been a rough go for me, but as I stated in my post, I'm probably not the typical gamer... where a lot of these rules are second nature to me. When I feel more comfortable with the rules, I'll give an update. Something of a 'Second thoughts' section.

[Gallowglacht]

Hmm, I didn't get that. You may well be right, I have a metric ton of different games, perhaps as you say, that helped.

[cheeplives]

Well, I'm more than happy to do my best to clarify any issues you might have... so just ask away.

Might I ask what problems you see in the pre-gen characters, though?
_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.

Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!

[pikaia]

Oh Wow, First of all thanks a lot.

Secondly, as I mentioned, I'm sure a lot of my confusion is my own fault. The examples you listed in the book have been helpful in clearing some things up. But the questions I had regarding the pregen characters are mostly based on the stats of some of the gear. Are these new trapping designs? Because a lot of the specs don't seem to match. For instance: the Lase Pulsar for "Maya" is listed at a Shooting +6 and dealing 2 wounds, whereas the one in the manual is a +8 and 1 wound. There are several instances of this, Candor's ProtecSkin offering Armor of 2 whereas the book has it at 1. Are these all variations on the trappings in the book? The pregen ProtecSuit has a build cost of 22 whereas the book is 24 and the pregen seems more powerful (despite its lower value).

On a separate note, when do you utilize the critical wound boxes (aside from when indicated by special weapons). Are the critical wound boxes utilized when the 'normal' boxes are filled, or when they take large amounts at once? Also the manual makes it seem like there are penalties suffered when 'normal' wounds are taken? What are these penalties.

I'm just trying to understand this all better. I'd like to run my own game soon and want to make sure I'm comfortable with as much as possible before diving in.

I'm sure I'll have more questions, but I really appreciate any and all feedback.

Thanks again.

[cheeplives]

pikaia wrote:
Oh Wow, First of all thanks a lot.

Secondly, as I mentioned, I'm sure a lot of my confusion is my own fault. The examples you listed in the book have been helpful in clearing some things up. But the questions I had regarding the pregen characters are mostly based on the stats of some of the gear. Are these new trapping designs? Because a lot of the specs don't seem to match. For instance: the Lase Pulsar for "Maya" is listed at a Shooting +6 and dealing 2 wounds, whereas the one in the manual is a +8 and 1 wound. There are several instances of this, Candor's ProtecSkin offering Armor of 2 whereas the book has it at 1. Are these all variations on the trappings in the book? The pregen ProtecSuit has a build cost of 22 whereas the book is 24 and the pregen seems more powerful (despite its lower value).

On a separate note, when do you utilize the critical wound boxes (aside from when indicated by special weapons). Are the critical wound boxes utilized when the 'normal' boxes are filled, or when they take large amounts at once? Also the manual makes it seem like there are penalties suffered when 'normal' wounds are taken? What are these penalties.

I'm just trying to understand this all better. I'd like to run my own game soon and want to make sure I'm comfortable with as much as possible before diving in.

I'm sure I'll have more questions, but I really appreciate any and all feedback.

Thanks again.

Yeah... right. The sample characters in the Quick Start are actually built on an older and more simplified system, so the numbers on the equipment won't match up. So you're right there. Perhaps I should re-build them in the new system and post them... sorry about that.

As far as the Critical Wounds go... yes, so long as you don't use the Critical Hit option (operations manual page 8) then you must exhaust all normal wounds before you hit Critical Wounds. If a weapon deals Critical Wounds, however, they ignore Normal Wound boxes and just deal Critical Wounds.

Also, Critical Strikes or Critical Wounds ignore armor (page 24 operations manual), so keep that in mind too.

As far as the wound penalties for normal wounds... they don't exist anymore (they used to exist, so I might have missed it in the doc... can you give me a page ref on it so I can fix it in errata?). Only Critical Wounds have penalties.
_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.

Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!

[pikaia]

Ok. Well thats good to know that I'm not as far behind as I'd expected.

Page 17 in the Field Manual, under Health Tracks at the beginning of the second paragraph talks about penalties whenever any damage is taken.

I'm still a bit fuzzy on the wound boxes though. I understand that whatever damage a weapon does beyond someone's armor is dealt to their wound track. But its when to deal critical wounds (down, disabled, out) that still have me confused. If someone is damaged to the point of all normal wound boxes being filled, what happens? Is this considered down? Out? Or is this when I start ticking boxes on the critical track with each additional wound? This is my confusion. Beyond the specified 'deals critical damage' weapons, when are the critical boxes used. This is clearly described in the 'Hit Points' box (disabled =0 to -5, etc) but I'm not seeing it in terms of the default wound track (at least not that I can see).

Again, thanks a lot. I'm rereading through the Credit section now, and I'm sure I'll have some more questions for you soon.

[cheeplives]

pikaia wrote:
Ok. Well thats good to know that I'm not as far behind as I'd expected.

Page 17 in the Field Manual, under Health Tracks at the beginning of the second paragraph talks about penalties whenever any damage is taken.

I'm still a bit fuzzy on the wound boxes though. I understand that whatever damage a weapon does beyond someone's armor is dealt to their wound track. But its when to deal critical wounds (down, disabled, out) that still have me confused. If someone is damaged to the point of all normal wound boxes being filled, what happens? Is this considered down? Out? Or is this when I start ticking boxes on the critical track with each additional wound? This is my confusion. Beyond the specified 'deals critical damage' weapons, when are the critical boxes used. This is clearly described in the 'Hit Points' box (disabled =0 to -5, etc) but I'm not seeing it in terms of the default wound track (at least not that I can see).

Again, thanks a lot. I'm rereading through the Credit section now, and I'm sure I'll have some more questions for you soon.

Okay... once again, I'll fix that in errata.. there are no penalties save for the ones from Critical Damage.

As far as damage. Basically the way it's designed to go is that a weapon's damage fills boxes from left to right.

Say you have 3 normal boxes. If you take damage from a weapon that deals 3 Wounds then you are out of normal boxes, but are not considered "Disabled"... The next hit from a 3 Wound Weapon should take the character to OUT. If they got hit with a 1 Wound weapon, they'd be at DISABLED. Two wounds would take them to DOWN.
_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.

Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!

[pikaia]

Ok. Again thanks A LOT, for all the help.

I'm working on designing a game to be played after my group finishes our current 7th Sea campaign. I'm trying to figure out the Ship specs. Looking at the Trappings section, I see that subsystems cost the Size of the subsystem +2/per 1 point. What exactly does that mean? The example in the book lists a ship having 2 Subsystem 10s and one subsystem 8, but the total build cost would be 14. How is that calculated? The only way I get 14 with that is to take one size 10 subsystem (so a build cost of 10 and then +2 for the next 10 and +2 for the 8) I'm sure this isn't right, so if you could help me understand how this is calculated, I'd appreciate it.

[cheeplives]

Subsystems and Cargo cost 1 point for every two levels. So a Size 10 Subsystem would be 5 BP. Another way to look at it is that Subsystems and Cargo cost 1/2 their Size in BP.

Size 2 = 1 BP

Size 3 = 1.5 BP

Size 4 = 2 BP

Size 5 = 2.5 BP

etc.

It should be read as +2 to Size for 1 point.
_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.

Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!

[Malperion]

My only petty complaint is that I would have liked it if the ship's weapons hit the raider's vessel in the extended combat example provided. I have a few cobwebs that need clearing on how vehicles take damage that a good example would take care of.

But, the only thing holding me back from running this game with my group is the amount of games already in our "queue". We have 4 gms among the 9 players in the group and I manage the C&C game that people expect when it's my turn to run. It's a good problem to have I suppose...

[cheeplives]

Malperion wrote:
My only petty complaint is that I would have liked it if the ship's weapons hit the raider's vessel in the extended combat example provided. I have a few cobwebs that need clearing on how vehicles take damage that a good example would take care of.

But, the only thing holding me back from running this game with my group is the amount of games already in our "queue". We have 4 gms among the 9 players in the group and I manage the C&C game that people expect when it's my turn to run. It's a good problem to have I suppose...

Ask and ye shall receive!

Quote:
Liam: Fine. The Gunship is currently at Extreme range to the Berebeli. Okay, what is Lucas going to do, James?
James: Lucas will jump to the command console and try to put the reticles for our cannon on the Gunship. I am using my Shooting Specialty and Combat is Prime for me.
Aaron: Dont forget the Shooting Bonus for the Light Assault Cannon!
James: Right. So I add my Reflexes of +3, +1 for my Shooting Specialty, and +4 for the Light Assault Cannon, giving me a +8.
Liam: Your Challenge Level is 6 for firing a Short Range weapon at Extreme Range plus another 8 for the Defense Screen on the Pirate Gunship.
James: Right, so thats a Challenge Level 14 with my Challenge Base of 12 for having Combat as Prime, which means I need a 26 to hit. (Rolls a d20) I got a 19! Hit! Suck on that you pirate scum!
Liam: Fair enough. The Gunship has a Deflector Screen mounted, so that gives it Armor 2 and Durability 4. Your LAC does two wounds...
James: Three wounds!
Liam:... three Wounds... So the Armor 2 reduces the damage by 2 and 1 Wound gets through. The Armor also loses a point of Durability and is now a 3. The Gunship has a Durability of 5, so it is now down to a 4.
James: Damn! These guns aren't strong enough... we need someone to get to Engineering and boost them some!
Liam: Next round, my friend... the Pirates and their Gunship use a Move Action for their turn to close the distance. The craft has a Move of 1, so it is now Moving up to Long Range. And it gets a +3 to its Defense until its next turn due to this. Youre up Mayara.

_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.

Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!

[Malperion]

Ah! Much cooler and instructional to boot!

I also like the bit about getting to Engineering to boost the power of the weapons. That's the kind of innovative freedom I need to train my players to do a bit more, even though we've played C&C for a few years and they still bound their character's abilities within a 3rd Ed mindset (is there a rule for that?). Oh well....they are Old Dogs that need to be taught new tricks wrapped around a big stick.

[aliannahfth]

Great Job