Interesting Goodman Games post...

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:39 pm

by Joe Goodman. I think Lord Dynel will find this of the most interest with his interest in opening an LGS.
http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 07&p=25324
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:15 pm

Yes, quite an interesting post.

About the only point I'd question is the scenario Mr. Goodman has painted. It isn't quite the same as a simple comparison of years. WOTC (and TSR before it) is no longer an independent company with its emphasis on the "Gamer" market and so must instead adhere to Hasbro's view of "Successful." Big corps are notorious for an inability to see the long view on product.

So, the question really is not if 4E is or isn't doing as well as D&D in 1982 or 2001, or as strong as the intervening years between those dates.

The real question is much simpler.

Is 4E doing well "enough" for Hasbro to continue it? Maybe, maybe not. That's something only time (and the Hasbro BoD) can answer.
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Benoist · Post by **Benoist** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:57 pm

I think Joseph has a horse in this race and it shows in the way he chooses to frame his argument. Namely, saying how it's unfair to compare to Third Ed's sales because it's a "once in a generation" occurence, so that if 4E's sales are mediocre, it's still selling well according to the set of parameters he chooses to define (without actual evidence but rather with a "trust me, I know what I'm talking about because I'm Joe Goodman").

I also find objectionable how he names a bunch of years for comparison when in fact he, Joseph Goodman, never worked for WotC, even less for TSR, and can't possibly have any sales numbers about these years he would be able to use to compare to 4E's sales, assuming he has any idea what the actual WotC sales numbers (and not his own) are today.

My conclusion is that Joe's logic is faulty at best or carefully misleading at worse. I know Joe a bit by exchanging emails with him about Iron Heroes. He's a nice guy and really, I'm not going after him as a person. But at the same time, I can't just accept these arguments because he's a nice guy. I don't think they make any sense in their present form.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:16 pm

Benoist wrote:
I also find objectionable how he names a bunch of years for comparison when in fact he, Joseph Goodman, never worked for WotC, even less for TSR, and can't possibly have any sales numbers about these years he would be able to use to compare to 4E's sales, assuming he has any idea what the actual WotC sales numbers (and not his own) are today.

Well, as to this, your premise is a bit faulty. Anyone who knows where to look can find the sales numbers of TSR in the period in question. Joe even mentioned one means how he found out. Although, he knew Gary for a fair while as several game company owners did and could just as easily got the information from himself, or any of the TSR folks lurking about still.
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Benoist · Post by **Benoist** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:19 pm

You've got a point, Peter.
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Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:14 am

The bottom line is that, like it or not, the D&D brand is always going to be the FRPG standard bearer, unless of course WotC goes toes up and lets the brand die with it. The odds of that are most likely slim-to-none. Joe has put out some fun adventures. I look forward to seeing more. I just won't be buying them in the 4/e line. I'll pick up his C&C mods, and will look at other things he puts out. I may even pick up some of the d20 mods that still sit on the shelves at my FLGS.

What I've seen, speaking of my FLGS, is far more D&D 4/e than anything else. C&C is starting to crack onto the shelves, but it's a clear minority. It seems like there's always D&D on the shelves. Do I know how much product they are moving? No. The rumblings from behind the counter are less than enthusiastic, but they still have lots more WotC product on the shelf than anything else. If they're inflating the sales numbers, trying to prop up 4/e to make it look better than it is, oh well. The only thing I can say is that I'm not one of the people buying their product.

Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:16 am

This is not to say, however, that I don't hope that C&C will take over. If that happens, the only people who would be happier than me are Steve, Davis, Mac, Peter & Company. May they knock the king off the mountain. The sooner the better, as far as I'm concerned.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:20 am

As to the rest, Joe is one who ought to be listened too. Advertising and marketing is what he does. Its clear he knows what he's talking about since Goodman has managed to weather the stormy seas of this market.
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Coleston the Cavalier · Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:00 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
As to the rest, Joe is one who ought to be listened too. Advertising and marketing is what he does. Its clear he knows what he's talking about since Goodman has managed to weather the stormy seas of this market.

Yes. WOTC ought to let Joe oversee D&D.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:02 am

Mr Goodman seems like he knows what he is talking about.
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Benoist · Post by **Benoist** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:49 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
As to the rest, Joe is one who ought to be listened too. Advertising and marketing is what he does. Its clear he knows what he's talking about since Goodman has managed to weather the stormy seas of this market.

This, I disagree with.
Not about Joe's qualifications (he ought to be listened to), but about the particulars of his argument (listening to him doesn't mean he's right).

To me, he is biased. It is very obvious in the way the argument itself is framed.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:56 am

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
Yes. WOTC ought to let Joe oversee D&D.

*wry smile* I'd ruther see him aim at C&C myself.

But that might be my own bias showing?
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:13 am

Benoist wrote:
This, I disagree with.
Not about Joe's qualifications (he ought to be listened to), but about the particulars of his argument (listening to him doesn't mean he's right).

To me, he is biased. It is very obvious in the way the argument itself is framed.

There may be bias present, but I believe Joe has the right of it, because he is a smart and savvy business man. To the point where he has done many things successfully that other "experts" were sure he would fail at.

Plus I know how he has got his numbers, I got them the same way, so his rationale is sound, well reasoned, and based on accurate enough numbers.

Yeah, I would love to see him take over TLG. Steve obviously needs someone cracking a whip nearby.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:21 am

Treebore wrote:
Yeah, I would love to see him take over TLG. Steve obviously needs someone cracking a whip nearby.

*wry smile* I never mentioned anything about taking over, I was thinking more along the lines of market for.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:28 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
*wry smile* I never mentioned anything about taking over, I was thinking more along the lines of market for.

As long as it involves a whip snapping in Steve's direction.
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Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:44 am

Treebore wrote:
As long as it involves a whip snapping in Steve's direction.

Hey now! We don't need to hear any of your fantasies about whipping Steve. TMI.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:51 am

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
Hey now! We don't need to hear any of your fantasies about whipping Steve. TMI.

OK.. mental floss needed. The visual of Tree in dominatrix gear I didn't need.
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Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:02 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
Treebore wrote:
gideon_thorne wrote:
Treebore wrote:
OK.. mental floss needed. The visual of Tree in dominatrix gear I didn't need.

Sorry. It was getting a little funky for me too, and I've never seen Tree.

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:27 am

Getting away from such mental images.....

Back to serious side - yeah, I wish Joe would continue or restart a C&C line..... not sure why he hasn't.

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:45 am

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
gideon_thorne wrote:
Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
Treebore wrote:
gideon_thorne wrote:
Sorry. It was getting a little funky for me too, and I've never seen Tree.

If you knew how ugly I am your mind wouldn't have even started in that direction!
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Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:20 pm

I'm so warped, I just might have. Sometimes, it's fun being so twisted. Why is CE the best alignment to play again?

dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:36 pm

That was a very well-thought out post by Mr. Goodman. I dislike 4e, but I can't fault his logic one bit.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:24 am

I know people like to claim 4e isn't doing well in sells. I also know that in my flgs 4e moves very well and the new mini packs fly off the shelves also even if they are not used for 4e. (I use my d&d minis for C&C all the time)

I think it is very interesting to hear the perspective of someone who is in the business and knows what the trends actually are.

I think Mr Goodman is right to point out that 4e sales are great compared with most years of the game but not when compared with the release of 3e which IIRC was better advertised and marketed. I firmly believe that 3e saved the hobby even if I don't really like the system overly much.
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:19 pm

concobar wrote:
I firmly believe that 3e saved the hobby even if I don't really like the system overly much.

I hear this every once and awhile, and it couldn't be more wrong.

What 3e did was bring a corporate presence to gaming. Legitimized rpg gaming as a real entertainment option and no longer a fringe, mysterious, geek culture thing. More importantly it brought a fairly large influx, of new blood, that has a trickle down affect to game companies below.

But the death of gaming? Hardly, even if they never existed or worse crashed and burned under Hasbro, gaming wouldn't be as large and maybe even lose some companies along the way. But, there are plenty of companies that have existed through hard times (Even harder than the early 90's... like the late 80's.) and are still here and still kicking, Steve Jackson Games, Palladium, Hero Games, Chaosium to just name a few. They survived because of their solid fan base and when 3e sprouted, not everyone ran to the NEW D&D, abandoning the game they have played, in some cases, decades.

No, if 3e never existed, gaming would have just kept chugging away. It wouldn't have died. If I can put my own hypothesis in here, I'd argue that, gaming wouldn't have died, it would've become more diverse, with natural expansion and contraction.
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:30 pm

Sir Ironside wrote:
What 3e did was bring a corporate presence to gaming. Legitimized rpg gaming as a real entertainment option and no longer a fringe, mysterious, geek culture thing. More importantly it brought a fairly large influx, of new blood, that has a trickle down affect to game companies below.

I agree with you by and large, but I say RPG gaming is still seen as "a fringe, mysterious, geek culture thing." It seems to me that folks have accepted video games into the mainstream, but tabletop RPGs are still seen as played by oddballs.
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:08 pm

Its ironic that I know of people who insist that tabletop RPGs are creations of Satan(TM) and a fount of all evil....

...but computer RPGs or MMO's are fine.
Confused,

Mike
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seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:09 pm

sieg wrote:
Its ironic that I know of people who insist that tabletop RPGs are creations of Satan(TM) and a fount of all evil....

...but computer RPGs or MMO's are fine.
Confused,

Mike

If you think THAT's confusing - I know people who forbid their kids from anything to do with Harry Potter but watch Lord of the Rings with them all the time....
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:58 pm

Logic and that "R" word are not strong be fellows.

I am grateful for 3E for several reasons. C&C, Mutants and Masterminds, and tons of modules and gaming accessories. Like I doubt Tom would have done Fat Dragon Games without 3E happening. Oh, and the redone Judges Guild material is another thing I am grateful for.

Did 3E save gaming? No, but it certainly gave it one heck of a rejuvinating boost.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:23 pm

Sir Ironside wrote:
I hear this every once and awhile, and it couldn't be more wrong.

What 3e did was bring a corporate presence to gaming. Legitimized rpg gaming as a real entertainment option and no longer a fringe, mysterious, geek culture thing. More importantly it brought a fairly large influx, of new blood, that has a trickle down affect to game companies below.

But the death of gaming? Hardly, even if they never existed or worse crashed and burned under Hasbro, gaming wouldn't be as large and maybe even lose some companies along the way.

Actually, I think there is some truth to both statements. Did 3e save the hobby? Maybe not... but it did save D&D as a whole. The very late TSR left AD&D in a very bad place ... WOTC of the coast bought them out... finished a few products and began working on 3rd Edition. Early 3rd edition was being set up a certain way... Without WOTC's buyout of TSR, D&D may have been left at the curb. It would certainly still be played... TSR would have likely been bought by another company in time but it would still be a shadow of it's former self. WOTC bought TSR in 1997... Hasbro came in sometime in 1999. I think Hasbro's influence becomes more visible the closer you got to the 3.5 release and from there, WOTC became quickly became what they are today -- for good or ill.

I think other game companies that have suffered because of the machine that went into developing the d20 line and 3.x might have remained stronger. However, I do agree think RPG's would still be around and kicking. It would be interesting to see which companies might have prospered though.

On the other hand, I do think that 3.x can be credited for a continued interest into an older style of RPG if, for nothing more, than being related to the older forms of the game. I now many people who went from knowing nothing but 3.5 and switching to C&C, one of the other OSR games, or the older originals because of what D&D is and became.

M
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