Bad News for the PH

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:10 pm

Hey folks,

We've worked this thing three ways of Sunday and can't get it down under 140 pages. Even at the 136 it was at a few weeks ago the cost of printing is too much to sustain the $19.99 price tag. We are going to move it up to $21.99. I'm very reluctant to do this, and even this won't cover the added expense (that nice paper drove the price up a bit, and the general inflationary cost of paper is up as well).

We have one last hope, not really, but the printer might cut us a discount as we are sending them a bundle of books this year...CKG, Gods, PH, MT and MT of Aihrde.

Sorry about the price bump folks.

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:43 pm

So, does this mean that Peter Bradley has to change his nickname to "Twenty-two dollars"?
_________________
Please. I have dice that are older than you are.

Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:46 pm

Though I was gonna organize a Frankenstein like mob, we lacked pitchforks and torches; so we gave up.

Good thing to, because it was after that we realized every book company has had to raise their sales cost because everyone is suffering under the high cost of paper.

Really I'm amazed you've kept the price so competitive all this time.

So, for me this is hardly a problem.
_________________
That is SIR! to you!

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:53 pm

Well...it could've been worse. Like no PH at all...
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

cuchulainkevin · Post by **cuchulainkevin** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:53 pm

Count me as one of the understanding.

Like Ironside, I was astounded that you kept the price so low on the core books so long.

Durn nice of ya and ain't gonna cumplain, nope.
_________________
A Room Zoom Zoom. A Room Zoom Zoom. Gilly Gilly Gilly Gilly Ot Zat Za Come open the magic door with me, With your imagination there's so much we can see. There is a doorway that leads to a place. I'll find my way by the smile on your face.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:55 pm

It's no big deal, Steve. Even with a two-dollar bump the PH is still under the current market standard for gaming books. If you really want a fun exercise do this: Take the original price of the D&D white box and adjust it to today's prices, the result will blow your mind.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:04 pm

I just run the numbers IIRC the D&D white box ran about $20.00 in the mid '70s. In today's dollars that translates to $96.33. When the core C&C books get there I will have a problem.
Source
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:09 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
I just run the numbers IIRC the D&D white box ran about $20.00 in the mid '70s. In today's dollars that translates to $96.33. When the core C&C books get there I will have a problem.
Source

The original 3 booklet white box was like $5 I think.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:11 pm

From what Tim Kask has said it was more like $20.00 I'll double check that...
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:13 pm

OD&D 1st print box set was originally $10.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:14 pm

Bah! A $2.00 increase!!?!? I'm done for good with this money-grubbing corporate entity!!

Seriously, bad news on a PHB increase would have been "Folks, we've gotta go to 39.95 for each and every core book and larger ones will be more like $50 each....."

I too am appreciative and amazed at the astoundingly low prices overall TLG has maintatined with C&C over the past several years, and applaud it. A very minor increase such as this is well-supported by myself and I suspect others if the minimal increase supports the additions and information in the book, plus the NEW PAPER ROCKs, IMHOP.

Quite frankly, as I hear the "doom and gloom" threads about table-top RPGs and the industry/hobby as a whole, as long as TLG continues to THINK about the fans and Steve comes on to say HERE'S WHY WE"RE RAISING X THIS AMOUNT I have a feeling people will be very understanding.

_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:20 pm

serleran wrote:
OD&D 1st print box set was originally $10.

That translates to $43.38. I can't find Tim's post but Serl's seems on target. Interestingly enough the $21.99 tag for the new PH comes to $5.07 in '74, for reference the approximate $50.00 price for most current games translates to $11.53. Looks like gaming has actually gotten cheaper.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:22 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
That translates to $43.38. I can't find Tim's post but Serl's seems on target. Interestingly enough the $21.99 tag for the new PH comes to $5.07 in '74, for reference the approximate $50.00 price for most current games translates to $11.53. Looks like gaming has actually gotten cheaper.

Well, according to that calculator, if we were going by the price of the AD&D PHB ($12), we could be selling the C&C players guide for $36.

So I guess a $24.95 price tag (and this is just me being hypothetical) wouldn't bother anyone eh?
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:24 pm

Let me join in the chorus and say "uhm, no big deal." It's still a bargain at $22.00. It says a lot about you and TLG that even such a small increase was a hard decision.
_________________
Lord Frost

Baron of the Pitt
Castles & Crusades Society
The Dungeoneering Dad

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:26 pm

It wouldn't bother me. You're still under the current price but the comparison is a bit flawed since the C&C PH has a lower page count than most books these days. I'd compare the PH to a book with the same page count, B&W art and a hard cover then run the calculation and see where you are.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:27 pm

I think it takes some steel to come here, to your dedicated forums, and say something like "we're going to up the ante, boys... pitch in." So, thank you for the gumption and the creed, Steve. It matters more that you show you're trying to make things reasonable, than simply doing it.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:34 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
It wouldn't bother me. You're still under the current price but the comparison is a bit flawed since the C&C PH has a lower page count than most books these days. I'd compare the PH to a book with the same page count, B&W art and a hard cover then run the calculation and see where you are.

I was comparing it to the AD&D book, which, as I recall, was $12 and roughly 126 pages. And I bet the AD&D book would have been 140 or so pages were they not using a 7 point font.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:36 pm

Frankly, I was hoping that the price tag would be raised to $24.95 and then bump up the page count to 156. No, seriously.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:37 pm

I was referring to a current book that was similar. Your version works though.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

CKDad · Post by **CKDad** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:50 pm

Wow! You had me scared there for a moment. Thought it was going to be something like "We can't get it out before GenCon" or "Davis spilled his beer on the computer and we have to send the disk out for recovery" or something.

Even at $2 more a copy, this is still one of the best values in gaming. PERIOD.
_________________
"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

Dragondaddy · Post by **Dragondaddy** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:56 pm

29.95 is ok for the PHB and 34.95 or 39.95 for the CKG

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:02 pm

Hmmm. Seeing as how that's still under $25, a price tag you don't see anymore (except on a Paladium product). I can't complain.

I just dig into my couch for more spare change.

Though truth be told if I've got $2 in change in my couch, it's seriously time to clean.

Pat Payne · Post by **Pat Payne** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:02 pm

Let's see... We're getting more pages, more spells, a cleaned-up layout, a kick-ass cover illo...

Yeah, I'm really cheesed off about the $2.00 increase. Enraged really. Pitchforks and torches for all. Then perhaps a light lunch.

Pat Payne · Post by **Pat Payne** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:02 pm

Dragondaddy wrote:
29.95 is ok for the PHB and 34.95 or 39.95 for the CKG

OTOH, don't give them ideas...
Seriously, though, how is this going to affect those of us who preordered? Are we going to have to resubmit the order, are are y'all going to charge us the extra $2 through Paypal?

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:07 pm

Dragondaddy wrote:
29.95 is ok for the PHB and 34.95 or 39.95 for the CKG

Actually I think that might push it a bit high for TLG's intentions....

But I would agree with Peter about 24.95 as still being acceptable and try to keep the larger books at 29.95 (CKG and OGAM)

Box sets like StarSiege, Tainted Lands, etc. would seem to be about right at 29.95 as well (unless the box costs go up - i.e. need a different maker down the road - then an increase into the 34.95 range would seem acceptable).

I hope the mods and saddle-stitched modules remain in the $9 range, with somewhere in the teens for larger saddle-stitch releases.

Just my 2 cents there.
_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

garydee · Post by **garydee** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:34 pm

Two dollars more ain't gonna break me. If this book is 12 pages longer, what is being added besides 45 new illusion spells?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:39 pm

garydee wrote:
Two dollars more ain't gonna break me. If this book is 12 pages longer, what is being added besides 45 new illusion spells?

Well, the font size is a bit larger, which added a few pages. But a few classes got revised a bit and various clarifications were put in.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:40 pm

Joining the chorus:

ok my me, Steve, still very reasonable.

We don't want you shutting TLGs doors, and it's still very reasonable, so no sweat.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:45 pm

I was shocked you didn't raise it to $25 last time. IF your still not making a profit at $22 I still think you should raise it to $25 THIS time. Its in my best interest for you guys to stay profitable and in business. Then again, its why I buy direct from you, so you get all my money instead of having to give the lions share to distributors and retailers.

So I will just make sure to continue to buy direct from you guys so that it is actually profitable for you to sell at $22.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

garydee · Post by **garydee** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:58 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Well, the font size is a bit larger, which added a few pages. But a few classes got revised a bit and various clarifications were put in.

For some reason I actually like the small font size. Are you sure TLG can't keep it the same?