My heavily house-ruled version of C&C

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:23 am

Hi, Im a first time poster (I finally decided to come out of anonymity) but a long time reader of the TLG and DF message boards. Although I readily admit that the game is more than satisfactory as it is (in fact, I can now safely say that Ive found my ideal fantasy RPG), I still (Im kind of hard-headed like that) ended up producing my own set of house rules (I feel obliged to warn you that they may be considered to be somewhat heavy by most) which I would like to share with the open-minded (unlike many others) and very active (by the way, thank you for producing such great stuff!) C&C community. I may otherwise have been branded as a heretic for having the arrogance of marring such a great game on my first post
Among the many changes and tweaks, I have (over?) ambitiously attempted to rebalance all of the character classes (using my own imperfect class deconstruction template) so that a universal experience point progression could be used. Since I initially wrote this document solely with my own gaming group in mind, some readers may not find it to be comprehensive enough. However, I would be more than happy to clarify and discuss specific points with anyone who might be interested.

My house rules will soon be put to the test as I am now getting ready to run a Temple of Elemental Evil campaign in a homebrew version of the Greyhawk setting (so dont be surprised if you see non-canon references in my document). Ill let you know how it went.

Im looking forward to hearing from you, even if its for harsh criticism! My house rules

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:24 am

Welcome to the Crusade!

And... I do believe that the word ambitious cannot be overstated enough... over 40 pages is a nice little revamp!

In terms of heresy... well I've always found the world is more interesting with the occasional heretic around! This is the beauty of Castles & Crusades though... it's modular enough so... if you don't like it... change it, add to it, or remove it.

I've only quickly gone through the document just now and I didn't see any mention of them in your document... Do you still use the Primes?

Moriarty the Red
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:39 pm

Wow man, this is a ton of stuff. I will give you any feedback I have when Im done going over it, which may be a while!

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:50 pm

Thanks for sharing, and good luck with the crusade!
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imperialus · Post by **imperialus** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:11 pm

Looks really interesting. Question though (and perhaps you have answered it I just havn't found it in the document) how do you ballance the classes that were formerly ballanced via XP tables?

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:38 pm

I'll try to answer in order :

Quote:
And... I do believe that the word ambitious cannot be overstated enough... over 40 pages is a nice little revamp!

Don't be intimidated by its size, most of its content addresses the class rebalancing and does not affect actual gameplay in any discernable way. The rest is modular enough to be used in anyone's campaign. Feel free to take what you like and simply disregard the rest.

Quote:
Do you still use the Primes?

Yes, actually I do use Primary Attributes (abbreviated PA; the many abbreviations I use look like they complicate things more than they simplify them...). I also added Secondary Attributes (SA) which are more or less like "half-primes" with a CB of 15. 1 PA can be traded for 2 SAs although having a SA does not make a character elligible for a class. Both PAs and SAs also have a minimum attribute requirement of 9 (no 6 STR fighters or 3 INT wizards...). What was called a secondary attribute in the original game, is now called (for consistency's sake) a Tertiary Attribute (TA) with the same CB of 18. All in all, this may well be the only changes I made to the already very elegant SIEGE engine.

Quote:
how do you ballance the classes that were formerly ballanced via XP tables?

I made up a Excel spreadsheet and attributed points to pretty much every aspect of the character classes. Some of the choices made are somewhat subjective (I do not believe that perfect balance is possible anyway...) but all of the classes add up quite nicely to an average of 50 points with a mean deviation of 1 point. Rogue-type character classes obviously had to be powered up a bit (I made them slightly more combat oriented, as I always wanted them to be, with a good BtH progression and d8 for HD). They are also no more d4s for HD. It goes from d6 to d12. Priest-type character classes were slightly "nerfed" (I always felt that they had it all) by making them less combat oriented (average BtH progression). Warrior-type character classes have not changed a whole lot and neither have the wizard-type character classes (even though their XPP is steep in the original game, most of these classes power lies solely at higher levels; you first have to survive to get there...). Maybe it would be far simpler if I made the spreadsheet available on my fledgeling web page...
I also have completely revised the weapons and armors section of the game. No more 1d6+3 damage godentag (which I affectionally called the "Wizard-Slayer" since a lvl 1 d4 HD character class simply had no chance of surviving a single blow), worthless scimitar (except for the very motivated role-player...) and full plates which are no more encumbering than a hafted hook (a knight in such an armor literally had to be pulleyed in his horse).
Don't get me wrong (this complaining part is not meant to sound disrespectful, annoying or hostile...), I am not of the min/maxer type and do not expect to get realism (which, in my opinion, is pointless) out of a RPG (as a matter of fact I sometimes made changes favoring simplicity or game balance over accuracy) but I do not like such obvious loop-holes. They just needlessly end up harming the game and ultimately the role-players more than the roll-players which will simply adapt to such flaws (like the legions of spiked chain wielding fighters now found in D&D; my knowledge of history might be lacking but I do not remember having ever heard such praise over this weapon...). I completely understand that some of you don't really care about such minute details (this may well be some kind of mental defect of mine ) and only want a fast-flowing system to let you game as much as you like and that's great!
Overall, I added some of my favorite features from previous D&D editions and also some of those presented in the 3rd (which unquestionably has its merits). For example, I integrated some basic feats as combat manoeuvers available to all character classes. Having a unified XPP also makes multi-classing (double-classing in my case) easier and more flexible without falling in the "I was a fighter yesterday but I woke up as a wizard this morning" or "I am a 4th lvl fighter/3rd lvl wizard/2nd lvl rogue/1st lvl power ranger" syndromes which make a RPG more akin to a computer game than anything else.

Thank you for your welcome and interest in my ranting!

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:39 pm

I added the class rebalancing spreadsheet and the character alignment tracking chart on my page.

As I have previously stated, this class deconstruction template is not meant to be rigorous (and it could also be flawed since it has yet to face playtesting...) but more like a general guideline. It should not be used to min/max character classes or create new classes with redundant abilities. Changes should be justifiable from a role-playing perspective.
My humble C&C page

magehammer · Post by **magehammer** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:41 pm

I like your page. Well done. It looks vaguely familiar and I don't know why...(check out my signature)

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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:46 pm

Thanks again! In reference to your re-vamped weapons list... that has me particularly interested. I had some questions regarding that (a previous thread I started) with regards to the Scimitar, Rapier, and Shortsword.

In short, I'm more than a little curious... and your work may very well... soften my work load.
I'll have a better chance to get acquainted to your document later this evening I imagine.

So thanks again!

Moriarty the Red
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:58 pm

Could you e-mail me a word pad version of your doc?

Or at least a rich text version?

b o r z o i a d d i c t at yahoo dot com

Please put something to the effect of "My C&C House Rules" so it doesn't get spammed if you do this for me.

Thanks!

Sorry, I'm asking because I don't have the program to open your document with.

PeelSeel2 · Post by **PeelSeel2** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:01 am

Rock on dude! Welcome to the crusade(r) (boards)!
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:25 am

Treebore wrote:
Could you e-mail me a word pad version of your doc?

Or at least a rich text version?

b o r z o i a d d i c t at yahoo dot com

Please put something to the effect of "My C&C House Rules" so it doesn't get spammed if you do this for me.

Thanks!

Sorry, I'm asking because I don't have the program to open your document with.

Hey Tree. Just click his link and it will prompt you to save it. And just save to your desktop and then open with wordpad. Or right click on the link and save to desktop!

Wordpad will open doc and rtf files!
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csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:18 am

1st off, thanks for putting a link to my C&C site on your site Metathiax. When I get a chance, I'll return the favor.

I'm looking forward to checking out your C&C House Rule project. I have a similar labor of love (and OCD!) that I'm working on and it'll be good to have another point of reference on how to approach my C&C Revision.

My quasi-finished version is available HERE. Like you, I'd love to get feedback from my fellow C&Cers... even if it's ranting, frothing condemnation (so long as it's constructive, frothing condemnation).

Happy gaming!

PS: Right-click and download the file, as it's a little over 9Mb in size!

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:24 am

Quote:
It looks vaguely familiar and I don't know why...(check out my signature)

This style fits well with the C&C logo colors. Yours look better than mine though...a lot less primitive. My limited (to say the least) artistic abilities explain the 3rd-gradish layout of my page.

Quote:
Could you e-mail me a word pad version of your doc?

Or at least a rich text version?

Consider it done in case Rhuvein's advice does not cut it for you.

Quote:
thanks for putting a link to my C&C site on your site Metathiax

My pleasure, I found it to be very useful.

Quote:
have a similar labor of love (and OCD!) that I'm working on

13 WOW!!! Such labor intensive work should get you a Ph.D. in C&C! As a fellow system-revision-zealot, I sure am going to read this. I already "oinked" your Environmental Hazards section in my first scroll-through.

magehammer · Post by **magehammer** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:47 am

Metathiax,

Thank you for the kind words about my site, but I owe it all to Google. Their software makes it a breeze. Just have fun with it. I agree that the colors look really good with the C&C goodness.

Oh, yeah, Welcome to the Crusade.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:24 am

csperkins1970 wrote:
My quasi-finished version is available HERE

Wow, of course I didn;t have time to read the whole thing, but this is nice. NICE! Wow.

..............................................Omote

FPQ
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csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:15 pm

Thanks much!

I'll definitely be adding your Greyhawk deities to my upcoming Unearthed Arcana supplement! It's kewl to see the similarities between our rule-sets... though we took different paths a lot of times as well.

In a little bit, I'll add a link for my work-in-progress Unearthed Arcana. There's stuff in there that corresponds to stuff in your House Rules (The Duelist, The Anti-Paladin, The Half-Ogre, etc) but it still is missing the Greyhawk gods section and a psionics section (the most daunting section to tackle).

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:45 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:

Quote:
but it still is missing the Greyhawk gods section and a psionics section (the most daunting section to tackle)

I have to point out this document to you. Really, this is the ultimate source of canon information on the Greyhawk deities. I am sure this is going to save you loads of work on this topic. I myself converted some of this material for my own C&C campaign but did not dare to put it online because of possible copyright infringement issues (I'm not very knowledgeable of this legal stuff but my guess is that copy-pasting 90% of a document would be considered to be plagiarism... ). That's why I added an appendix to my house rules (you should consult the linked document above for strictly canon data) containing only information related to gameplay without any of the fluff text. I could send you the original document though, fluff text and all, if you are interested.

As for the psionics, I think that Grey-Elf did a great job with them. In my opinion, he managed to get the right feel out of them (which is no easy feat).

By the way, your web page has been added to the C&C Player Site along with mine.

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:29 pm

Thanks again...

As time allows, I'll "port" stuff over from those sources and my old Dragon archives, Best of Dragon volumes and Greyhawk materials. It'll probably take me a month or so (maybe longer) to finish Unearthed Arcana.

After that, I'm gonna tackle my own version of the Monster Manual(s). I know it's madness... but it keeps me out of trouble.

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:03 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:

Quote:
After that, I'm gonna tackle my own version of the Monster Manual(s). I know it's madness... but it keeps me out of trouble.

Not that I want to nurture your madness but you might want to take a look at this AD&D 2nd edition Monstrous Manual compilation then (I can't believe WotC allows it to stay there ).
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:46 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
Thanks again...

As time allows, I'll "port" stuff over from those sources and my old Dragon archives, Best of Dragon volumes and Greyhawk materials. It'll probably take me a month or so (maybe longer) to finish Unearthed Arcana.

After that, I'm gonna tackle my own version of the Monster Manual(s). I know it's madness... but it keeps me out of trouble.

After seeing this set of house rules / guide -- I now am starting to look at my own work (guide) I've been producing with a degree of contempt.

The bar has now been raised.

:: grumble ::

Moriarty the Red
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:03 pm

Don't think of it that way Moriarty777... just think of how little I have to do with my time that I do this for hours on end!

Thanks for the high praise but please feel free to shoot criticism my way. My group won't playtest my system, so I'd like to hear from fellow C&Cer's as to what they think will work or won't.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:23 pm

I'll definitely be delving a bit further in your document. At this point I don't have much to critique about ... save maybe the EV thing. When I was looking, it looks like you've decided not to adopt it.

Although I think it could use a little tweak or two for my tastes, EV is something I really like. My players have also supported the simple system although I think they are learning that EV is a harsh mistress!

Were there any concerns with EV that caused you to ditch it... or is there an EV conversion (based on... I think it was Traveler's houserules) somewhere else in your guide?

Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:29 pm

I just have found that weight-based encumbrance rules work well enough for my tastes. It's one of the 3rd edition things that doesn't get under my skin.

I could have used the EV system but really didn't find it to be easier to implement.

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:03 am

csperkins1970, I went through (however not in minute detail) your documents (or should I say books... ) and I must say that I like what I've read. As you've said, there are some striking similarities between our respective revisions although you have obviously favored a more old school approach than mine. I wonder, how did you balance out the character classes so that they all follow a 2500 XPP? It's a shame that your players are not willing to playtest your rule-set though...
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csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:48 pm

Metathiax wrote:
I wonder, how did you balance out the character classes so that they all follow a 2500 XPP? It's a shame that your players are not willing to playtest your rule-set though...

When it came to Fighter-types, I balanced them by trying to balance them against the core FIGHTER. Each class shines in its element:

The FIGHTER excels with his specialized weapons, is devastating against hordes of weak creatures, and eventually gets more attacks (with specialized weapons) than any other subclass at levels 8 and beyond.

RANGERS excel against humanoids and giants, are better at two-weapon fighting, get minor spell abilities and get other class abilities that (I think) make them great guerilla fighters (Survival, Hide, Move Silently, Tracking).

BARBARIANS are the toughest toe-to-toe warriors and, with Rage, are fierce combatants while they rage. They also get abilities that make them effective in the wilderness, so they're pretty self-sufficient.

CAVALIERS, in the saddle, are scary... plain and simple. They also get some other minor weapon bonuses so that they're not useless in the dungeon. They also help their party with their aura against fear and ability to effectively act as liasons with nobles.

PALADINS don't get too many combat perks but get a good number of class abilities to help them confront evil creatures (and heal their party members). Their minor spell abilities help balance them as well.

Overall... my litmus test for fighter-types was this question:

"Is there any FIGHTER type that doesn't rock in one way another?" Each type should have its niche, its strengths and weaknesses.

For ARCANE CASTERS, the balancing factors are their spell lists and the number of spells they cast per day. Illusionists have a more limited list, but get some spells as lower level spells and can cast more lower-level spells than a Wizard of equal level.

For divine casters CLERICS are balanced against DRUIDS because clerics are better combatants overall (better armor and combat spells) but druids get better due to their Totem Shape and animal summoning spells. Even though they can't Turn Undead, they are more helpful to an adventuring party in the wilderness. BARDS are decent fighters, get decent spell ability and are good at knowledge skills and inspiring others to greatness. I balanced them against clerics and druids by giving them some really good spells and class abilities.

Monks, compared to FIGHTERS, get less hit points and can't wear armor but get all sorts of funky abilities and, as they progress, get awesome in hand-to-hand combat. At high levels, they would probably outclass a fighter in a toe-to-toe fight (unless the fighter has some really good armor and weapons... which is my assumption).

I'd like to better balance THIEVES and ASSASSINS against the other classes so that they could follow the came XP progression but couldn't do that without making them too 3rd edition. If anyone has suggestions on how to do this, bring 'em on! I tried to balance assassins against thieves by tweaking the Death Attack ability.

Hope that helps...

Finally, when I did the classes and races I tried to think if there was any class or race that totally outshone any other. I really think that they're all on par with one another (though maybe the bard is a little weak).

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:04 pm

These premises all sound very reasonable. By the way, how do you get to quote with the username like this :

Quote:
Metathiax wrote:

I wonder, how did you balance out the character classes so that they all follow a 2500 XPP? It's a shame that your players are not willing to playtest your rule-set though...

instead of like this :

Quote:
Quote:

After that, I'm gonna tackle my own version of the Monster Manual(s). I know it's madness... but it keeps me out of trouble.

(I'm still trying to get a hang of all these options...)
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csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:26 pm

Metathiax wrote:
By the way, how do you get to quote with the username like this :

It just does that when I hit the "Quote" button. The code is

NAME wrote: the quoted text... and then close the quote

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:26 pm

Thanks!
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"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
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Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:13 am

I've added a new version of my house rules on my web page. I only made minor additions, changes and corrections to the previous version. I also converted it to PDF for those who were put off by the Word format.
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"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8