Ability Modifiers

lobocastle · Post by **lobocastle** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:49 pm

I considered using the D&D 3rd edition ability modifiers in place of the C&C ability modifiers. But since the monster manual and published adventures were set up for C&C modifiers I stayed with the C&C modifiers. Has anyone experimented with this?

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:37 pm

lobocastle wrote:
I considered using the D&D 3rd edition ability modifiers in place of the C&C ability modifiers. But since the monster manual and published adventures were set up for C&C modifiers I stayed with the C&C modifiers. Has anyone experimented with this?

Nope. If you consistently apply the ability mod changes across the board it shouldn't unbalance things too much. Would you still give ability score boosts every 4 levels? Just wondering.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:18 pm

lobocastle wrote:
I considered using the D&D 3rd edition ability modifiers in place of the C&C ability modifiers. But since the monster manual and published adventures were set up for C&C modifiers I stayed with the C&C modifiers. Has anyone experimented with this?

It beefs up the PCs a bit, I don't see it as breaking the game any, just making the PCs a little tougher.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:17 am

I use the +1 ability score every four levels. So far, it hasn't broken the game.

I have not used the 3.x score adjustments. I feel that the game is a little less powered than 3.x, so I feel that it's not needed and is balanced the way it is. I'm sure it'd be fine though either way.
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lobocastle · Post by **lobocastle** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:04 am

1. Would you still give ability score boosts every 4 levels?

Answer: I believe that an adventuring life style forces a character to improve or die. I actually give a a PC +1 to add to one ability score every even level. You cannot add a +1 to the same ability score consecutively. I use a 20 level maximum based on 2nd edition, so one ability score could be raised a total of +5 over 20 levels. I was considering a +1 to an ability score every level, but you would have to cycle through all ability scores before you could increase a single ability by another +1.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:58 pm

lobocastle wrote:
1. Would you still give ability score boosts every 4 levels?

Answer: I believe that an adventuring life style forces a character to improve or die. I actually give a a PC +1 to add to one ability score every even level. You cannot add a +1 to the same ability score consecutively. I use a 20 level maximum based on 2nd edition, so one ability score could be raised a total of +5 over 20 levels. I was considering a +1 to an ability score every level, but you would have to cycle through all ability scores before you could increase a single ability by another +1.

I believe the way you rule it would work out pretty good, too. It may be a little too much for my personal tastes, but it doesn't unbalance it, IMHO.

By the way, welcome to the Crusade, lobocastle!
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lobocastle · Post by **lobocastle** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:33 pm

Lord Dynel,

It is true I was a power gamer so as a CK I continue in that vain. I just do not like weak characters, I was never interested in role playing a character with a below 10 ability score. I have no problem if other people want to do, but I do not. Just to clarify, I do not need all 18s either, but I firmly believe that player characters are the best of the best and should both start with above average ability scores and improve upon them as they advance in level. I should add that I also play in a lower magic campaign. I also adjust the monsters used in my campaign.

Joe

Gundoggy · Post by **Gundoggy** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:29 pm

I'm using the C&C modifiers.

The 3E modifiers resulted in rapid expansion of attribute bonus 'bloat' where attribute boosting items became all powerful and many modules were written assuming the party was optimized with such items.

I like the reduction in bonus in both attributes and magic items. It prevents certain lucky PC's to completely dominate others like they do in 3E. Also makes the math easier.

Steerpike · Post by **Steerpike** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:54 pm

lobocastle wrote:
Lord Dynel,

It is true I was a power gamer so as a CK I continue in that vain. I just do not like weak characters, I was never interested in role playing a character with a below 10 ability score. I have no problem if other people want to do, but I do not. Just to clarify, I do not need all 18s either, but I firmly believe that player characters are the best of the best and should both start with above average ability scores and improve upon them as they advance in level. I should add that I also play in a lower magic campaign. I also adjust the monsters used in my campaign.

Joe

Always cool to see the views others bring with them when they come into a session. I have always held firmly to the idea that the PCs are nothing special at all at level 1 and have to prove themselves. Usually when new players come into the game, if we're starting at level 1 I tell them: 'You are not heroes. At least not yet. You guys are nobodies and if you die the world won't miss you. It's up to you to change that."

They take me up on it

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:03 pm

lobocastle wrote:
Lord Dynel,

It is true I was a power gamer so as a CK I continue in that vain. I just do not like weak characters, I was never interested in role playing a character with a below 10 ability score. I have no problem if other people want to do, but I do not. Just to clarify, I do not need all 18s either, but I firmly believe that player characters are the best of the best and should both start with above average ability scores and improve upon them as they advance in level. I should add that I also play in a lower magic campaign. I also adjust the monsters used in my campaign.

Joe

I haven't been a power gamer for decades, but I still think a PC should be one they are happy with, so I have generous stat creation rules, I even tell them to freely assign what they want as stats, max of 18. I am the CK, they are not too powerful, I can kill their PC's any time I wish. So letting them have good attributes if that is what they wish is a small and easy concession on my part.
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lobocastle · Post by **lobocastle** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:10 pm

Gundoggy,

I to am using the C&C modifiers. I liked the D&D system where every even level from 12 up gave you an additional bonus. I prefer to rarely use attribute boosting items with the exception of potions. I prefer to have character increase their attributes as they advance in level. At a minimum I would recommend CKs allow the +1 ability score every four levels. I also run a lower magic campaign as compared to the published gaming worlds.

Joe

lobocastle · Post by **lobocastle** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:16 pm

Steerpike,

1. Always cool to see the views others bring with them when they come into a session.

Answer: Yes, I agree

2. I have always held firmly to the idea that the PCs are nothing special at all at level 1 and have to prove themselves.

Answer: I agree with the statement, but I also prefer the pCs to be more talented than average.

3. "You are not heroes. At least not yet. You guys are nobodies and if you die the world won't miss you. It's up to you to change that."

Answer; I run a tough campaign, so even the most gifted of PCs run by the most talented of players struggles to survive.

lobocastle · Post by **lobocastle** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:20 pm

Treebore,

1. I have generous stat creation rules, I even tell them to freely assign what they want as stats, max of 18.

Answer: I like that idea, but I am going to stick with my three methods to generate ability scores.

2. I can kill their PC's any time I wish. So letting them have good attributes if that is what they wish is a small and easy concession on my part.

Answer: I am not shy about PCs dying, but if a player is role playing well, I have given breaks.

Joe

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:41 pm

lobocastle wrote:
Treebore,

1. I have generous stat creation rules, I even tell them to freely assign what they want as stats, max of 18.

Answer: I like that idea, but I am going to stick with my three methods to generate ability scores.

2. I can kill their PC's any time I wish. So letting them have good attributes if that is what they wish is a small and easy concession on my part.

Answer: I am not shy about PCs dying, but if a player is role playing well, I have given breaks.

Joe

Well, hopefully we all do. I just know I have seen game masters claim high stats break their games. I don't see how, I find it hard, even with girdles of giant strength, combined with gauntlets of ogre powers, and hammer of thunderbolts hard not to kill.

Just ask nwelte about his Paladin, Ash.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:19 pm

lobo, it's all good. If you took any offense from what I posted earlier then I apologize. My post was simply this - I think what you propose would work fine. I personally prefer lower power-leveled games, and I mimic 3.5e and give characters a +1 to an attribute every four levels. But that's my schtick. But your method would work fine, especially since you revealed a little more about the game you run (lower magic, tougher monsters, etc.). As long as you and your players are satisified, then that's what matters!
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Steerpike · Post by **Steerpike** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:50 pm

It's true the CK can adapt to anything and make the game dangerous.

If the PCs get too powerful, that's when I introduce the ancient black dragon wearing the ninja suit and using Nunchuks of Annihilation.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:19 pm

Steerpike wrote:
... and using Nunchuks of Annihilation.

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lobocastle · Post by **lobocastle** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:21 pm

Lord Dynal,

I have no issue with different view points, I only wished to clarify my own. It is quite possible that I could play in your campaign and like it very much. It is also possible for you to play in my campaign and like it a lot. Those two events can take place despite having completely different style campaigns.

Joe

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:17 pm

I've come to the decission that for basic fantasy settings, I will allow the PCs to start with a total attribute bonus of +10 before racial modifiers. That works out to an attribute of 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, & 13 (if the PC takes a bonus for every attribute). I am going to do this because I feel that while the PCs start out as basically nobodies, they are a cut above the rest of the world. It takes a special kind of crazy to walk into a cave/ruin/fortress of critters that can't wait to kill you and then dine on your entrails.
R-
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Kaiser_Kris · Post by **Kaiser_Kris** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Rigon wrote:
I've come to the decission that for basic fantasy settings, I will allow the PCs to start with a total attribute bonus of +10 before racial modifiers. That works out to an attribute of 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, & 13 (if the PC takes a bonus for every attribute). I am going to do this because I feel that while the PCs start out as basically nobodies, they are a cut above the rest of the world. It takes a special kind of crazy to walk into a cave/ruin/fortress of critters that can't wait to kill you and then dine on your entrails.
R-

I can see where you're getting at, but it still seems really, really high? I've been considering how to do stats myself. I am a pretty big fan of players not having a bonus in every stat. Penalties are something that I'm not normally that into unless the player wants it for RP reasons (and maybe to balance out high stats elsewhere), and that being with a flat minimum of 8. Though I also like rolling ...

Overall, I really like the way the Castles and Crusades system works with the primes and the slightly lower bonuses.

Steerpike · Post by **Steerpike** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:57 pm

I just do 3d6 6 times, distribute as you like.

I'm fine with the idea that someone just crazy enough to go adventuring might not actually be exceptional in any way (and may even be sub-par).

But whatever works for each person's game -that's the way to do it.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:03 pm

I have folks roll 4d6, and drop the lowest number. They can put the resultant scores anywhere they like.

I'd be inclined to let players buy up an ability score modifier to the tune of 10,000 xp.

If a player wants to buy an extra +1 to a specific single ability or skill type, its 1,000 xp per +1
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Kaiser_Kris · Post by **Kaiser_Kris** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:11 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
I have folks roll 4d6, and drop the lowest number. They can put the resultant scores anywhere they like.

I'd be inclined to let players buy up an ability score modifier to the tune of 10,000 xp.

If a player wants to buy an extra +1 to a specific single ability or skill type, its 1,000 xp per +1

That's what I'm probably going to do myself. It usually works pretty well in giving a decent stat spread. I've found that usually folks get at least one 16 or above, which I like, and rarely score below 8. The idea of buying an ability score modifier for XP is an interesting one, though.

Steerpike · Post by **Steerpike** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:20 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
I have folks roll 4d6, and drop the lowest number. They can put the resultant scores anywhere they like.

I'd be inclined to let players buy up an ability score modifier to the tune of 10,000 xp.

If a player wants to buy an extra +1 to a specific single ability or skill type, its 1,000 xp per +1

I use the 4d6 method quite a bit as well. Haven't considered the ability score buy up. That's an interesting way of approaching it.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:25 pm

Steerpike wrote:
I use the 4d6 method quite a bit as well. Haven't considered the ability score buy up. That's an interesting way of approaching it.

Well, I'm funny that way. I actually like characters taking a long time to level up, and actually earn their experience points and levels. One gets a lot of real back story to brag about in those levels too. But if folks want to spend time fiddling with numbers, I'd be inclined to make em earn it.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:09 am

lobocastle wrote:
Lord Dynal,

I have no issue with different view points, I only wished to clarify my own. It is quite possible that I could play in your campaign and like it very much. It is also possible for you to play in my campaign and like it a lot. Those two events can take place despite having completely different style campaigns.

Joe

Indeed, good sir. I wholeheartedly believe that. Glad to see we understand each other!
As far as the recent discussion on die rolling methods, I've been running my first campaign of C&C. Those characters were rolled with the 3d6 arrange as desired method. One thing I will say - the players once again understand the value of, and have renewed reverence for, the higher attribute scores (16+, IMHO). There are two scores at my table of four that has a 16 or higher. I think they lost that appreciation in 3.x, but to be fair 3.x changed the "position" of the PC from being a step above the commoner (sometimes!) to being destined for greatness. I kind of like this step back.
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